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> the mask averse amongst us "mask averse"? Really? We're talking about people who knowingly risk the lives of others; that's not their risk to take. Even with

> the mask averse amongst us "mask averse"? Really? We're talking about people who knowingly risk the lives of others; that's not their risk to take. Even without all the potential complications we're still discovering in survivors, we already know it kills people at a high rate. I wouldn't go as far as "murder" unless someone actually knowingly had the disease and spread it to others, but "criminally negligent" would not be even slightly unwarranted. You don't point a gun at other people and pull the trigger just because you don't think there's a bullet in it. It's not always easy to visualize "small probability of large harm", but the longer people keep fighting against steps like wearing a mask or not going out, the longer and more serious this will become, and the more people will die. "mask averse" is one of the major differences between places that have this more-or-less under control for the moment and places that don't. There is no valid excuse to be anywhere around other people without some form of mask right now. None whatsoever. (Better yet, keep staying home if you possibly can, but that there are certainly some legitimate reasons to not do.) Arguing against mask is like arguing you should be able to go without vaccination (which people do, but that is rightfully treated as conspiracy-theory-level harmful misinformation) or blow secondhand smoke in people's faces (except with a higher degree of potential harm from short-term exposure).

jakeogh 6y ago
Just say it. Forever. Right? This viral class never goes away. The masks are psudoscience mixed with the psychology[1] of fear unless they are desinged for viruses[2]. [1] https://stpauls.vxcommunity.com/Issue/Us-Experiment-On-Infants-Withholding-Affection/13213 https://stpauls.vxcommunity.com/Issue/Us-Experiment-On-Infan... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730633 You argue "There is no valid excuse", well, why not use a mask desinged for viruses instead of making medical decisions for other people? What's next? Are you going to claim "There is no valid excuse to be anywhere around other people without proving you have had medical procedure X"? A real mask actually protects the person using it. If you reply, please consider clicking [2], and get the non-covid-19 flu/pneumonia stats/estimate/count for 2020 and compare to the CDC pdf.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  > A real mask acually protects the person using it. Specialized medical masks and careful usage can, yes. But even a cloth mask provides some benefit, and much of the benefit is to others: your mask reduces the likelihood of your infecting others, their mask reduces the likelihood of them infecting you. There have been multiple analyses showing that non-specialized masks (e.g. cloth) provide some benefit, even though they're not a complete substitute for medical masks. For some strange reason, this particular family of misinformation seems to have become both political and conspiracy-adjacent; it shouldn't be. There is little to no value in replaying the same arguments here, nor any value in a prolonged repetitive thread. It really shouldn't be necessary to have mandates to do things that ought to be common sense and basic decency, but such is the current state of the world, even when there's plenty of data to demonstrate the problem. > This viral class never goes away. https://ncase.me/covid-19/ https://ncase.me/covid-19/ - There are many things we can and should do, simultaneously, in a coordinated concerted way, to reduce impact, save lives, and put us on a path to eradicating it. https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1280283199445311488 https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1280283199445311488 There's plenty more where those came from. There's valid reason to speculate how long this will take, and we should certainly plan for many scenarios including the worst. But there's no supporting evidence for such a confident assumption of "never", and even if that were true it still wouldn't justify blithely risking other people's lives. > why not use a mask desinged for viruses instead of making medical decisions for other people There aren't enough, they require a professional level of skill to use correctly, and in case you haven't seen pictures and videos of people using them, they're multi-layer armor, not just a simple mask. Also, the operative thing being protected against is droplets that carry the virus, not just the virus itself. See also secondhand smoke, vaccination, and other ways in which people are required to put up with minor inconveniences to protect the lives of others. And you absolutely have an option if you don't wear a mask: stay home. If you can't afford or find a mask, there are numerous people and places generously arranging to ensure everyone has access to some. Work towards a solution, rather than arguing why you should be able to be part of the problem.
  - jakeogh 6y ago
    Eradicating it? Really? It's crazy valuable, our response made it more so. It's only getting easier to engineer viruses. "some benefit" So do helmets. And banning smoking as you mentioned, kinda. And mandatory exercise. Heck fasting would offset the death stats in spades. Should I go on? What's your point? From the examples you listed, I must assume you are not for making these masks not desinged for viruses legally required. I dont think it will even remotely withstandand a Constutional challenge, but lets talk in the theoritical. Are you pro forced-medical procedures? If so, will you advocate using violence to do it? A _really_ interesting angle is when you consider the set intersection of the authortarians with the socalized medicine proponents. Why not talk about that CDC pdf? This is prob the last comment before I hit my limit, but I'll reply if given the chance when it resets.

jakeogh 6y ago

Just say it. Forever. Right? This viral class never goes away. The masks are psudoscience mixed with the psychology[1] of fear unless they are desinged for viruses[2]. [1] https://stpauls.vxcommunity.com/Issue/Us-Experiment-On-Infants-Withholding-Affection/13213 https://stpauls.vxcommunity.com/Issue/Us-Experiment-On-Infan... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730633 You argue "There is no valid excuse", well, why not use a mask desinged for viruses instead of making medical decisions for other people? What's next? Are you going to claim "There is no valid excuse to be anywhere around other people without proving you have had medical procedure X"? A real mask actually protects the person using it. If you reply, please consider clicking [2], and get the non-covid-19 flu/pneumonia stats/estimate/count for 2020 and compare to the CDC pdf.

JoshTriplett 6y ago
> A real mask acually protects the person using it. Specialized medical masks and careful usage can, yes. But even a cloth mask provides some benefit, and much of the benefit is to others: your mask reduces the likelihood of your infecting others, their mask reduces the likelihood of them infecting you. There have been multiple analyses showing that non-specialized masks (e.g. cloth) provide some benefit, even though they're not a complete substitute for medical masks. For some strange reason, this particular family of misinformation seems to have become both political and conspiracy-adjacent; it shouldn't be. There is little to no value in replaying the same arguments here, nor any value in a prolonged repetitive thread. It really shouldn't be necessary to have mandates to do things that ought to be common sense and basic decency, but such is the current state of the world, even when there's plenty of data to demonstrate the problem. > This viral class never goes away. https://ncase.me/covid-19/ https://ncase.me/covid-19/ - There are many things we can and should do, simultaneously, in a coordinated concerted way, to reduce impact, save lives, and put us on a path to eradicating it. https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1280283199445311488 https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/1280283199445311488 There's plenty more where those came from. There's valid reason to speculate how long this will take, and we should certainly plan for many scenarios including the worst. But there's no supporting evidence for such a confident assumption of "never", and even if that were true it still wouldn't justify blithely risking other people's lives. > why not use a mask desinged for viruses instead of making medical decisions for other people There aren't enough, they require a professional level of skill to use correctly, and in case you haven't seen pictures and videos of people using them, they're multi-layer armor, not just a simple mask. Also, the operative thing being protected against is droplets that carry the virus, not just the virus itself. See also secondhand smoke, vaccination, and other ways in which people are required to put up with minor inconveniences to protect the lives of others. And you absolutely have an option if you don't wear a mask: stay home. If you can't afford or find a mask, there are numerous people and places generously arranging to ensure everyone has access to some. Work towards a solution, rather than arguing why you should be able to be part of the problem.
- jakeogh 6y ago
  Eradicating it? Really? It's crazy valuable, our response made it more so. It's only getting easier to engineer viruses. "some benefit" So do helmets. And banning smoking as you mentioned, kinda. And mandatory exercise. Heck fasting would offset the death stats in spades. Should I go on? What's your point? From the examples you listed, I must assume you are not for making these masks not desinged for viruses legally required. I dont think it will even remotely withstandand a Constutional challenge, but lets talk in the theoritical. Are you pro forced-medical procedures? If so, will you advocate using violence to do it? A _really_ interesting angle is when you consider the set intersection of the authortarians with the socalized medicine proponents. Why not talk about that CDC pdf? This is prob the last comment before I hit my limit, but I'll reply if given the chance when it resets.