5 ms·

Do we really need to include race in our analysis? Why not look at all Harvard students?

darwinwhy 6y ago
Did you open the link? There's only 5 sentences: "Among admits who are African American, Asian American, and Hispanic, the share is less than 16% each."
microcolonel 6y ago
Because the priority is not to make it fairer, it is to add new benefits for some special interest. Race-based affirmative action misbehaves in exactly the ways its critics predict, but is still wildly popular because of how it feels to white liberals.
- microtherion 6y ago
  Race-based affirmative action is under regular legal attack: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/30/us/affirmative-action-supreme-court.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/30/us/affirmative-action-sup... As far as I know, legacy admissions have never been challenged before the SCOTUS. Furthermore, legacy admissions tend to reward underachieving students from privileged families, while affirmative action intends to reward overachieving students from underprivileged circumstances (e.g. programs admitting the top N% of graduates from every high school help good students who went to bad schools).
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    Being admitted to a school whose standards you do not meet is not a reward, but the first step toward creating the circumstances to argue that the means of evaluation is racist. Bad schools hurt, but discriminating by race at matriculation is about the most hamfisted imaginable way to achieve the outcome you're talking about. If the goal is to find and admit students whose worst academic years are behind them, overadmitting 1st generation Nigerian Americans because they look similar to African Americans is not the way. P.S. it seems you switch from "tend" to "intend" mid sentence, so I don't grasp what comparison you're trying to draw, maybe give that another shot.
    - microtherion 6y ago
      > it seems you switch from "tend" to "intend" mid sentence I'm fairly confident in the effect of legacy admissions. As for affirmative action programs, I'm confident in the intent of those programs, but less confident in their effect. Thus the switch in wording.
jzamora 6y ago
Do you really need post this comment? Why not look at all possible comments?
- cortesoft 6y ago
  I never thought I would see the All Comments Matter movement hit HN
Bud 6y ago
Yes. We really need to include race in our analysis and in all such analyses.
edh649 6y ago
It does look at all Harvard students, however the analysis is done from a racial point of view, in-line with the original law suit.
ThemalSpan 6y ago
Because race has been built into the fabric of our society. If we don't acknowledge that, then racial injustice will continue to propagate through time un-impeded.
- twsttest 6y ago
  Only by overcoming the concept of race can we actually overcome social division. Divisions among whites have melted away as they stopped seeing each other as "English" or "Italian" and instead came to unite. Similarly for us as citizens to unite we need to stop seeing each other as "white" and "black" and instead overcome these superficial differences. Injustice can easily be rooted out while also overcoming the concept of race. The problem is that race-oriented thinkers obsess over race and reify it, actually making racial tension worse.
  - medee 6y ago
    Competition for reproduction and resources between groups of genetically proximate organisms is the history of "life".
    - twsttest 6y ago
      Through the mixing pot of America we can come together and overcome our natural tendency towards division. This is part of what makes America a great nation. Again, the racially-oriented thinkers often just exacerbate division.
      - ThemalSpan 6y ago
        America's history has a continuous component of oppression. At no point since the founding of the country have all folk present on this land been equal and free. Pretending that past (and current) atrocities didn't happen, and ignoring whom they targeted, means that the inequalities they created will linger. Even today, COVID 19 affects Black and Latino folks at greater rates. That is a real, physical, manifestation of racial injustice. Ignoring that means ignoring structural problems in America.
jordache 6y ago
yes we do! Why are you trying to be so blind to race concerns?

Did you open the link? There's only 5 sentences: "Among admits who are African American, Asian American, and Hispanic, the share is less than 16% each."

microcolonel 6y ago

Because the priority is not to make it fairer, it is to add new benefits for some special interest. Race-based affirmative action misbehaves in exactly the ways its critics predict, but is still wildly popular because of how it feels to white liberals.

microtherion 6y ago
Race-based affirmative action is under regular legal attack: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/30/us/affirmative-action-supreme-court.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/30/us/affirmative-action-sup... As far as I know, legacy admissions have never been challenged before the SCOTUS. Furthermore, legacy admissions tend to reward underachieving students from privileged families, while affirmative action intends to reward overachieving students from underprivileged circumstances (e.g. programs admitting the top N% of graduates from every high school help good students who went to bad schools).
- microcolonel 6y ago
  Being admitted to a school whose standards you do not meet is not a reward, but the first step toward creating the circumstances to argue that the means of evaluation is racist. Bad schools hurt, but discriminating by race at matriculation is about the most hamfisted imaginable way to achieve the outcome you're talking about. If the goal is to find and admit students whose worst academic years are behind them, overadmitting 1st generation Nigerian Americans because they look similar to African Americans is not the way. P.S. it seems you switch from "tend" to "intend" mid sentence, so I don't grasp what comparison you're trying to draw, maybe give that another shot.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    > it seems you switch from "tend" to "intend" mid sentence I'm fairly confident in the effect of legacy admissions. As for affirmative action programs, I'm confident in the intent of those programs, but less confident in their effect. Thus the switch in wording.

jzamora 6y ago

Do you really need post this comment? Why not look at all possible comments?

cortesoft 6y ago
I never thought I would see the All Comments Matter movement hit HN

Bud 6y ago

Yes. We really need to include race in our analysis and in all such analyses.

edh649 6y ago

It does look at all Harvard students, however the analysis is done from a racial point of view, in-line with the original law suit.

ThemalSpan 6y ago

Because race has been built into the fabric of our society. If we don't acknowledge that, then racial injustice will continue to propagate through time un-impeded.

twsttest 6y ago
Only by overcoming the concept of race can we actually overcome social division. Divisions among whites have melted away as they stopped seeing each other as "English" or "Italian" and instead came to unite. Similarly for us as citizens to unite we need to stop seeing each other as "white" and "black" and instead overcome these superficial differences. Injustice can easily be rooted out while also overcoming the concept of race. The problem is that race-oriented thinkers obsess over race and reify it, actually making racial tension worse.
- medee 6y ago
  Competition for reproduction and resources between groups of genetically proximate organisms is the history of "life".
  - twsttest 6y ago
    Through the mixing pot of America we can come together and overcome our natural tendency towards division. This is part of what makes America a great nation. Again, the racially-oriented thinkers often just exacerbate division.
    - ThemalSpan 6y ago
      America's history has a continuous component of oppression. At no point since the founding of the country have all folk present on this land been equal and free. Pretending that past (and current) atrocities didn't happen, and ignoring whom they targeted, means that the inequalities they created will linger. Even today, COVID 19 affects Black and Latino folks at greater rates. That is a real, physical, manifestation of racial injustice. Ignoring that means ignoring structural problems in America.

jordache 6y ago

yes we do! Why are you trying to be so blind to race concerns?