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"They're Marxists!". You couldn't make it up. "We want peace"-America will always go down this route it seems. Haven't you seen the amount of people that are p

by jahaja 6y ago

"They're Marxists!". You couldn't make it up. "We want peace"-America will always go down this route it seems. Haven't you seen the amount of people that are participating in these demonstrations? Of course you're gonna find self-described "Marxists" among them. Doesn't mean that the average protestor is some sort of Stalinist relic from the 1960ths. That's just absurd.

rayiner 6y ago
I didn't say the average protester was a Marxist. I said exactly the opposite: BLM contains a "majority of well-meaning people who simply want to eliminate police brutality and inequality." But several of the BLM founders are, by their own description, Marxists, and that is a very different thing from happening to "find self-described 'Marxists' among" the protesters. People with lots of different views can happen to find themselves on the same side of any issue. I do think it's different when you're talking about the founders of an organization that is the de facto figurehead of the movement.
- jahaja 6y ago
  No it's not. There's no "founders" in the sense that you are trying to present. There's no organization that you join. You're pretty obviously implying that these protests are somehow linked to Marxism, otherwise that entire posts make little sense. I realize that conservatives always want to find some "leaders" to argue with rather than accept that it's a massmovement, not some top-down movement that has some sort of charter that most must directly or indirectly accept.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    There is a 501(c)(3) called the "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation." That organization created the slogan "black lives matter." That organization has leaders. They're Marxists. > You're pretty obviously implying that these protests are somehow linked to Marxism, otherwise that entire posts make little sense. I realize that conservatives always want to find some "leaders" to argue with rather than accept that it's a mass movement, not some top-down movement that has some sort of charter that most must directly or indirectly accept. I am not arguing that we should discredit the narrow goals of the protestors because of the ideologies of the BLM founders. In fact, I said exactly the opposite: > I am pro-BLM... I think people of every stripe can do something to help finish the job of reconstruction. But that's not what we're talking about. We are talking about a very specific quote from John Carmack upthread: "the statement 'black lives matter' is easy to agree with if you’re a decent human being." It is disingenuous to the extreme to suggest that one might not reasonably be concerned about the scope of that statement.
    - jahaja 6y ago
      > There is a 501(c)(3) called the "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation." That organization created the slogan "black lives matter." That organization has leaders. They're Marxists. So? If there's a Yellow Vests non-profit started in France that has its own charter and leaders doesn't make the yellow vest somehow within that group in any practical sense. What's your point trying to make this Marxist connection if there's indeed just some what you call leaders with Marxist connections? I mean you're saying that you're unsure if "black lives matter" includes Marxism?
      - torstenvl 6y ago
        When presenting an argument that has to do with determining characteristics of a group of people (e.g., the philosophical tenets of a movement), it is fallacious to cherry-pick who is and is not a real or representative member of that group. The founders of this group are indeed members and their views cannot be hand-waved away. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
      - rayiner 6y ago
        Leaders and policy planks matter. Leaders guide thought and policy. Support for a movement empowers that movement’s leaders. In this case, it is empowering people who say things like “capitalism is essentially racist.” https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-be-an-antiracist https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-be-an-antiracist. The vast majority of protestors may not agree, but it’s the leaders that are giving speeches and writing the books that are included in reading lists and school curriculums. These people make concrete conjectures, such as "the capital gains tax preference" (which is nearly universal in the developed world and widely supported by economists) "is racist." And they make concrete policy proposals, such as the following (remember the author has previously defined the capital gains preference to be racist): > [The anti-racist amendment] would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.

by jahaja 6y ago

rayiner 6y ago

I didn't say the average protester was a Marxist. I said exactly the opposite: BLM contains a "majority of well-meaning people who simply want to eliminate police brutality and inequality." But several of the BLM founders are, by their own description, Marxists, and that is a very different thing from happening to "find self-described 'Marxists' among" the protesters. People with lots of different views can happen to find themselves on the same side of any issue. I do think it's different when you're talking about the founders of an organization that is the de facto figurehead of the movement.

jahaja 6y ago
No it's not. There's no "founders" in the sense that you are trying to present. There's no organization that you join. You're pretty obviously implying that these protests are somehow linked to Marxism, otherwise that entire posts make little sense. I realize that conservatives always want to find some "leaders" to argue with rather than accept that it's a massmovement, not some top-down movement that has some sort of charter that most must directly or indirectly accept.
- rayiner 6y ago
  There is a 501(c)(3) called the "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation." That organization created the slogan "black lives matter." That organization has leaders. They're Marxists. > You're pretty obviously implying that these protests are somehow linked to Marxism, otherwise that entire posts make little sense. I realize that conservatives always want to find some "leaders" to argue with rather than accept that it's a mass movement, not some top-down movement that has some sort of charter that most must directly or indirectly accept. I am not arguing that we should discredit the narrow goals of the protestors because of the ideologies of the BLM founders. In fact, I said exactly the opposite: > I am pro-BLM... I think people of every stripe can do something to help finish the job of reconstruction. But that's not what we're talking about. We are talking about a very specific quote from John Carmack upthread: "the statement 'black lives matter' is easy to agree with if you’re a decent human being." It is disingenuous to the extreme to suggest that one might not reasonably be concerned about the scope of that statement.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    > There is a 501(c)(3) called the "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation." That organization created the slogan "black lives matter." That organization has leaders. They're Marxists. So? If there's a Yellow Vests non-profit started in France that has its own charter and leaders doesn't make the yellow vest somehow within that group in any practical sense. What's your point trying to make this Marxist connection if there's indeed just some what you call leaders with Marxist connections? I mean you're saying that you're unsure if "black lives matter" includes Marxism?
    - torstenvl 6y ago
      When presenting an argument that has to do with determining characteristics of a group of people (e.g., the philosophical tenets of a movement), it is fallacious to cherry-pick who is and is not a real or representative member of that group. The founders of this group are indeed members and their views cannot be hand-waved away. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Leaders and policy planks matter. Leaders guide thought and policy. Support for a movement empowers that movement’s leaders. In this case, it is empowering people who say things like “capitalism is essentially racist.” https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-be-an-antiracist https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-be-an-antiracist. The vast majority of protestors may not agree, but it’s the leaders that are giving speeches and writing the books that are included in reading lists and school curriculums. These people make concrete conjectures, such as "the capital gains tax preference" (which is nearly universal in the developed world and widely supported by economists) "is racist." And they make concrete policy proposals, such as the following (remember the author has previously defined the capital gains preference to be racist): > [The anti-racist amendment] would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas. The DOA would be empowered with disciplinary tools to wield over and against policymakers and public officials who do not voluntarily change their racist policy and ideas.