4 ms·

That's not the same as "no strategy", because this level of decentralization is how nation-states work today. It's also, incidentally, how the EU works. There

by bhupy 6y ago

That's not the same as "no strategy", because this level of decentralization is how nation-states work today. It's also, incidentally, how the EU works. There are open borders between member states — and while some member states "closed" their borders, this has been largely unenforceable in land crossings because there are no border patrol agents between every single land crossing between EU member states. Border enforcements have only been enforced at airports. In the US, nationwide air travel came to a near complete stand-still during the outset of the pandemic, so inter-state travel was already at the same levels you had in the EU. The US's strategy has been the same as the EU's, and it has been to let the member States define the strategy. As of right now, 36 out of 50 US states have a lower per capita death rate[1] than France, Sweden, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, and Ireland[2]. 15 States have a lower per capita death rate than Germany and Denmark, who have seen the best COVID outcomes in the EU. The US, to date, has administered more tests per capita than Belgium, Australia, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Norway, and Sweden (to name a handful). This is not because the US has a nationwide testing regime, rather it's because testing systems have been administered at the State level, with varying strategies (some focusing on nursing homes, some focusing on drive-thru testing etc). [1] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ [2] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

aazaa 6y ago
> That's not the same as "no strategy", because this level of decentralization is how nation-states work today. It's one thing to leave pandemic response to member countries like the EU does. Each country knows it's responsible for its own response. Money is budgeted and spent specifically for this purpose. That's not the system in the US - or hasn't been. The Federal government maintains what, until recently, was the world's premier infectious disease-fighting organization - the CDC. The implication was that pandemic response occurs through this organization. In the past, this is exactly what happened. You may recall the one state (Washington) earlier this year whose brave scientists decided to test for COVID on their own. They were told in no uncertain terms from the feds to stand down or else. So the idea that this pandemic response is up to the states doesn't hold water. Had the states known that they'd be left twisting in the wind, they could have taken steps beforehand. That's one likely outcome of this event (assuming it has a clean endpoint): states realizing they really are on their own - and acting like it.
- bhupy 6y ago
  > That's not the system in the US - or hasn't been. The Federal government maintains what, until recently, was the world's premier infectious disease-fighting organization - the CDC. The implication was that pandemic response occurs through this organization. In the past, this is exactly what happened. While you're right that the Federal government has the CDC, every single US States has its own infectious disease/health agency[1]. Furthermore, the EU also has its own centralized disease agency[2]. Structurally, both the US and EU are very similar in this regard. The only key difference is that (to your point) the EU States may override the ECDC, whereas US States may not — certainly a worthwhile policy change for the US. > So the idea that this pandemic response is up to the states doesn't hold water. Had the states known that they'd be left twisting in the wind, they could have taken steps beforehand. But this is factually incorrect, States did take steps beforehand. By March 23, every single State declared a state of emergency, and 48/50 States closed their schools. By as early as March 9th, the States were doing the VAST majority of COVID testing[3]. As of right now, the US has administered more tests per capita than Belgium, Australia, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Norway, and Sweden (to name a handful). This is not because the US has a nationwide testing regime, rather it is because testing systems have been administered at the State level[4]. [1] https://www.ehdp.com/links/us-shas.htm https://www.ehdp.com/links/us-shas.htm [2] https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en [3] https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1238574921346732032/photo/1 https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1238574921346732032/photo... [4] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
  - detaro 6y ago
    Random anecdote about the difference: I (in Germany) can't really remember seeing anything about what ECDC said or thinks in the past months in the media, only about country-level (and lower) authorities. Whereas US-CDC seems quoted quite a lot in US media.
    - bhupy 6y ago
      Oh for sure, the CDC is certainly more talked about by the media, but the power and structure of the agencies is fairly similar. It's only a matter of time until EU's agencies impose supremacy on its Member States. The EU supreme court is already starting to penalize member States for violating policies[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-germany-ecj-idUSKBN22K1HC https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-germany-ecj-id...
PeterisP 6y ago
In the EU, land crossings were re-manned on many borders and during the main lockdown (which is now mostly over) passenger travel on many land borders was stopped. On many borders (though not all) physical border checkpoints still exist even if they're widely open almost always, and the legal and administrative framework for controlling land borders is still maintained. Of course, it is now much easier to cross the border illegally outside of these checkpoints than before, but this still allows effective control of travel as most people are not criminals. "Border enforcements have only been enforced at airports." is absolutely not true. For example, I recall the international issue of making transit arrangements through Poland when back in March many people were stranded as the Poland-German border was suddenly closed; if I recall correctly, the agreed solution to repatriate these people was a police-escorted car column that was allowed to transit through Poland without these people being allowed "proper entry", but before that they were stuck for days in their cars as they could not get through the border. This is a key difference between EU and USA - the Schengen agreement allows member states to temporarily "opt out" of the free travel, reinstate border controls and impose travel restrictions (up to a full closure of borders) for various purposes, and many EU countries did just that due to Covid; while in USA, as far as I understand, the constitution greatly limits the right of states to prohibit interstate travel.
- bhupy 6y ago
  > while in USA, as far as I understand, the constitution greatly limits the right of states to prohibit interstate travel. The US States have been imposing varying levels of requirements on inter-state travel from other states. New York requires anyone entering from a set of states to quarantine for 14 days[1]. Maine requires visitors from a list of States to have been tested (I'm traveling to Maine and will be getting tested ahead of my trip)[2]. These are just a couple handy examples, but it's true across the board. And finally this is all moot because, per my original post, the results really speak for themselves: the majority of US States have lower per capita death rates than the major EU member states, and a small handful have lower per capita death rate than the best EU member states (Germany, Denmark). [1] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-individuals-traveling-new-york-three-additional-states-will-be https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-in... [2] https://www.maine.gov/governor/mills/news/improving-public-health-metrics-mills-administration-exempts-connecticut-new-york-and-new https://www.maine.gov/governor/mills/news/improving-public-h...
CaptainZapp 6y ago
> Border enforcements have only been enforced at airports. That's wrong. Most land borders, also within the Schengen area were closed and only a small amount of people, i.e. citizens, workers were permitted to cross. Things are slowly opening now within the EU. But that you could just waltz over any old land border is flat out wrong.

by bhupy 6y ago

aazaa 6y ago

> That's not the same as "no strategy", because this level of decentralization is how nation-states work today. It's one thing to leave pandemic response to member countries like the EU does. Each country knows it's responsible for its own response. Money is budgeted and spent specifically for this purpose. That's not the system in the US - or hasn't been. The Federal government maintains what, until recently, was the world's premier infectious disease-fighting organization - the CDC. The implication was that pandemic response occurs through this organization. In the past, this is exactly what happened. You may recall the one state (Washington) earlier this year whose brave scientists decided to test for COVID on their own. They were told in no uncertain terms from the feds to stand down or else. So the idea that this pandemic response is up to the states doesn't hold water. Had the states known that they'd be left twisting in the wind, they could have taken steps beforehand. That's one likely outcome of this event (assuming it has a clean endpoint): states realizing they really are on their own - and acting like it.

bhupy 6y ago
> That's not the system in the US - or hasn't been. The Federal government maintains what, until recently, was the world's premier infectious disease-fighting organization - the CDC. The implication was that pandemic response occurs through this organization. In the past, this is exactly what happened. While you're right that the Federal government has the CDC, every single US States has its own infectious disease/health agency[1]. Furthermore, the EU also has its own centralized disease agency[2]. Structurally, both the US and EU are very similar in this regard. The only key difference is that (to your point) the EU States may override the ECDC, whereas US States may not — certainly a worthwhile policy change for the US. > So the idea that this pandemic response is up to the states doesn't hold water. Had the states known that they'd be left twisting in the wind, they could have taken steps beforehand. But this is factually incorrect, States did take steps beforehand. By March 23, every single State declared a state of emergency, and 48/50 States closed their schools. By as early as March 9th, the States were doing the VAST majority of COVID testing[3]. As of right now, the US has administered more tests per capita than Belgium, Australia, Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, Canada, Switzerland, Germany, Austria, Norway, and Sweden (to name a handful). This is not because the US has a nationwide testing regime, rather it is because testing systems have been administered at the State level[4]. [1] https://www.ehdp.com/links/us-shas.htm https://www.ehdp.com/links/us-shas.htm [2] https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en [3] https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1238574921346732032/photo/1 https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1238574921346732032/photo... [4] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
- detaro 6y ago
  Random anecdote about the difference: I (in Germany) can't really remember seeing anything about what ECDC said or thinks in the past months in the media, only about country-level (and lower) authorities. Whereas US-CDC seems quoted quite a lot in US media.
  - bhupy 6y ago
    Oh for sure, the CDC is certainly more talked about by the media, but the power and structure of the agencies is fairly similar. It's only a matter of time until EU's agencies impose supremacy on its Member States. The EU supreme court is already starting to penalize member States for violating policies[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-germany-ecj-idUSKBN22K1HC https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ecb-policy-germany-ecj-id...

PeterisP 6y ago

In the EU, land crossings were re-manned on many borders and during the main lockdown (which is now mostly over) passenger travel on many land borders was stopped. On many borders (though not all) physical border checkpoints still exist even if they're widely open almost always, and the legal and administrative framework for controlling land borders is still maintained. Of course, it is now much easier to cross the border illegally outside of these checkpoints than before, but this still allows effective control of travel as most people are not criminals. "Border enforcements have only been enforced at airports." is absolutely not true. For example, I recall the international issue of making transit arrangements through Poland when back in March many people were stranded as the Poland-German border was suddenly closed; if I recall correctly, the agreed solution to repatriate these people was a police-escorted car column that was allowed to transit through Poland without these people being allowed "proper entry", but before that they were stuck for days in their cars as they could not get through the border. This is a key difference between EU and USA - the Schengen agreement allows member states to temporarily "opt out" of the free travel, reinstate border controls and impose travel restrictions (up to a full closure of borders) for various purposes, and many EU countries did just that due to Covid; while in USA, as far as I understand, the constitution greatly limits the right of states to prohibit interstate travel.

bhupy 6y ago
> while in USA, as far as I understand, the constitution greatly limits the right of states to prohibit interstate travel. The US States have been imposing varying levels of requirements on inter-state travel from other states. New York requires anyone entering from a set of states to quarantine for 14 days[1]. Maine requires visitors from a list of States to have been tested (I'm traveling to Maine and will be getting tested ahead of my trip)[2]. These are just a couple handy examples, but it's true across the board. And finally this is all moot because, per my original post, the results really speak for themselves: the majority of US States have lower per capita death rates than the major EU member states, and a small handful have lower per capita death rate than the best EU member states (Germany, Denmark). [1] https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-individuals-traveling-new-york-three-additional-states-will-be https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-in... [2] https://www.maine.gov/governor/mills/news/improving-public-health-metrics-mills-administration-exempts-connecticut-new-york-and-new https://www.maine.gov/governor/mills/news/improving-public-h...

CaptainZapp 6y ago

> Border enforcements have only been enforced at airports. That's wrong. Most land borders, also within the Schengen area were closed and only a small amount of people, i.e. citizens, workers were permitted to cross. Things are slowly opening now within the EU. But that you could just waltz over any old land border is flat out wrong.