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For a user to be affected by this they woul need to: * They would need to visit a website using webrtc * Grant Firefox the Android camera/microphone permissio

For a user to be affected by this they woul need to: * They would need to visit a website using webrtc * Grant Firefox the Android camera/microphone permissions * They would then be prompted to allow the website access to the camera and microphone * For this to be a persistent problem the user would need to check a box that says "Remember my decision for this site" this is unchecked by default in the above dialog As comments here and in the bug there are cases where leaving the camera active is useful so this is not as cut and dry as the title leads you to believe.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
pgo 6y ago
Sorry but you make it sound like its four independent actions which lowers the overall probability. While in reality this whole sequence of actions is a very common thing for a user to do.
- kbenson 6y ago
  > you make it sound like ... lowers the overall probability I think that depends on whether you interpret the comment as trying to mitigate the perceived magnitude of the issue, or provide clear and concise information on what the issue entails. I read it more as a "here's what the preconditions are, and there's some question as to whether the issue is actually a bug or not", and not "you have to do this for it to be a problem, so it's less bad than you think", so the wording didn't seem problematic at all to me.
  - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    FWIW based on how it was written I interpreted it as the latter "you have to do this for it to be a problem, so it's less bad than you think", so glad you clarified that wasn't your intent.
    - kbenson 6y ago
      To be clear, I didn't write that comment. I don't blame you for thinking that though, I actually almost added a postscript immediately after I commented to note that I wasn't the original commenter since the usernames looked similar, but figured I would just let it go and respond/edit if someone made the mistake. :)
      - harikb 6y ago
        I hope someone has a stat on how many HN replies are by third parties. Now breakdown by hamming distance of usernames from GP :) :)
  - dungdongdang 6y ago
    It's not "preconditions." It's one condition. That the user wants to visit a website that uses the camera. The rest are details of that one condition. He might as well have said things like "turn on phone" "install the firefox app" "short-press the firefox icon" (to launch it).
_bxg1 6y ago
I think the bigger story is that this is possible for an app to do at all on Android, in a way such that the user might not realize it can happen/is happening.
- kbenson 6y ago
  I agree. What does iOS do about this? Does it just not allow locked phones access to the camera, or provide a prompt at lock, or something else?
  - _bxg1 6y ago
    I'm curious too. I assume it's better, but I don't know firsthand. I tried googling it and every result was about manually opening the Camera app from your lockscreen.
    - snazz 6y ago
      Also not an iOS developer, but I think that apps enter a “suspended” stage when you close them or press the power button to save battery life. If you look at apps’ crash logs, you can see that they are occasionally killed by a system process for using too much CPU or other resources when they’re in the background.
      - _bxg1 6y ago
        There are definitely constraints on background activity, but I don't know for sure whether that applies to the camera, and I don't know what its precise relation is to the screen being locked
    - kbenson 6y ago
      Some other comments here seem to indicate (at least in recent models?) that it's a visual indicator light on the phone that the camera/mic is being accessed. That might be sufficient, although I might also like a small audio cue on lock (or camera engage/disengage while locked). Unfortunately, I doubt Android will ever be able to rely on a separate visual indicator of recording, since that's another hardware component and probably hard (if not impossible) for Android to enforce.
ElCampechano 6y ago
When it comes to Mozilla, HN will always have an explanation. If this happened with evil Google then this would be very different.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  Mozilla does not have the negative motivations to enact user-unfriendly and/or privacy compromising features on purpose nor for profit. They have a lot more goodwill stocked-up (not infinite, though) than Google when it comes to the users' interests, as well. Lastly, Mozilla is the traditional underdog. For these reasons and I'm sure many more, it should not be surprising that the geek-, security-, and privacy-oriented HN crowd has more positive assumptions about Mozilla than Google.
qwertox 6y ago
Honestly it does not matter how many conditions need to be met, there is simply no reason for a web browser to be able to do this under any circumstance. You might argue about a video surveillance app which you install and which you explicitly grant the permission of filming while the lock screen is on, for example with an old device which you want to use as a security camera, but that is a completely different use case.
gbrown 6y ago
We really need hardware LED indicators for phone cameras.
rvz 6y ago
So regular Google Hangouts / Meet and Jitsi Meet users then?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

pgo 6y ago

Sorry but you make it sound like its four independent actions which lowers the overall probability. While in reality this whole sequence of actions is a very common thing for a user to do.

kbenson 6y ago
> you make it sound like ... lowers the overall probability I think that depends on whether you interpret the comment as trying to mitigate the perceived magnitude of the issue, or provide clear and concise information on what the issue entails. I read it more as a "here's what the preconditions are, and there's some question as to whether the issue is actually a bug or not", and not "you have to do this for it to be a problem, so it's less bad than you think", so the wording didn't seem problematic at all to me.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
  FWIW based on how it was written I interpreted it as the latter "you have to do this for it to be a problem, so it's less bad than you think", so glad you clarified that wasn't your intent.
  - kbenson 6y ago
    To be clear, I didn't write that comment. I don't blame you for thinking that though, I actually almost added a postscript immediately after I commented to note that I wasn't the original commenter since the usernames looked similar, but figured I would just let it go and respond/edit if someone made the mistake. :)
    - harikb 6y ago
      I hope someone has a stat on how many HN replies are by third parties. Now breakdown by hamming distance of usernames from GP :) :)
- dungdongdang 6y ago
  It's not "preconditions." It's one condition. That the user wants to visit a website that uses the camera. The rest are details of that one condition. He might as well have said things like "turn on phone" "install the firefox app" "short-press the firefox icon" (to launch it).

_bxg1 6y ago

I think the bigger story is that this is possible for an app to do at all on Android, in a way such that the user might not realize it can happen/is happening.

kbenson 6y ago
I agree. What does iOS do about this? Does it just not allow locked phones access to the camera, or provide a prompt at lock, or something else?
- _bxg1 6y ago
  I'm curious too. I assume it's better, but I don't know firsthand. I tried googling it and every result was about manually opening the Camera app from your lockscreen.
  - snazz 6y ago
    Also not an iOS developer, but I think that apps enter a “suspended” stage when you close them or press the power button to save battery life. If you look at apps’ crash logs, you can see that they are occasionally killed by a system process for using too much CPU or other resources when they’re in the background.
    - _bxg1 6y ago
      There are definitely constraints on background activity, but I don't know for sure whether that applies to the camera, and I don't know what its precise relation is to the screen being locked
  - kbenson 6y ago
    Some other comments here seem to indicate (at least in recent models?) that it's a visual indicator light on the phone that the camera/mic is being accessed. That might be sufficient, although I might also like a small audio cue on lock (or camera engage/disengage while locked). Unfortunately, I doubt Android will ever be able to rely on a separate visual indicator of recording, since that's another hardware component and probably hard (if not impossible) for Android to enforce.

ElCampechano 6y ago

When it comes to Mozilla, HN will always have an explanation. If this happened with evil Google then this would be very different.

basilgohar 6y ago
Mozilla does not have the negative motivations to enact user-unfriendly and/or privacy compromising features on purpose nor for profit. They have a lot more goodwill stocked-up (not infinite, though) than Google when it comes to the users' interests, as well. Lastly, Mozilla is the traditional underdog. For these reasons and I'm sure many more, it should not be surprising that the geek-, security-, and privacy-oriented HN crowd has more positive assumptions about Mozilla than Google.

qwertox 6y ago

Honestly it does not matter how many conditions need to be met, there is simply no reason for a web browser to be able to do this under any circumstance. You might argue about a video surveillance app which you install and which you explicitly grant the permission of filming while the lock screen is on, for example with an old device which you want to use as a security camera, but that is a completely different use case.

gbrown 6y ago

We really need hardware LED indicators for phone cameras.

rvz 6y ago

So regular Google Hangouts / Meet and Jitsi Meet users then?