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>- John Carmack signal boosting[1] Sarah Downey's article "This PC witch-hunt is killing free speech, and we have to fight it"[2] Is this really a "bright spot

>- John Carmack signal boosting[1] Sarah Downey's article "This PC witch-hunt is killing free speech, and we have to fight it"[2] Is this really a "bright spot"? Expressing a fear (without any reasoning or evidence shown as the basis for that fear) that one's opponents approve of an atrocious campaign orchestrated by a totalitarian regime? There's a lot of room to criticize "cancel culture" and deplatforming. Comparisons with mass killings and state-orchestrated oppression is an odd choice, and (to take the other side of the fence here) with about the same amount of merit as saying that people critical of BLM have similar opinions of the Nazi regime.

zozbot234 6y ago
There is a direct line of descent between Maoist agitation in Western countries throughout the late-1960s and 1970s and the current radical left. They have explicitly approved of the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" in the past - often enthusiastically so - and for all we know, they continue to do so. The M.O. is certainly comparable.
- throwanem 6y ago
  That's the kind of sweeping claim that really needs to be sourced.
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  >There is a direct line of descent between Maoist agitation in Western countries throughout the late-1960s and 1970s and the current radical left. Do you have any sources I can read on this? If anything, it seems the radical left actually left Badiou and his ilk behind for the Frankfurt School, and even then, I'm doubtful as to what that intellectual heritage means to your average "radical leftist" today. This is all beside the point, however - is there a recent (from the past 20 years) poll or anything similar surveying the "radical left" (which, mind you, includes anti-statists and anarcho-Communists) on their opinion of the Cultural Revolution? One of the largest "radical leftist" groups in the West is Antifa, but from what I know, it's hard to see any Maoism (or Maoist ideas) present in its members[0]. The Sino-Soviet split and the ascension of Deng liberalizing China has practically deadened Maoist ideology in the West. You'd have a better (but still somewhat shaky) case to say the radical left today draws from Stalinism instead (as opposed to Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.). >They have approved of the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" in the past To what degree? In what numbers? For example, I can't name a single leftist journal which the majority of contributors could be aligned with Maoist views, never mind views supporting the Cultural Revolution. Even the Maoists I know of with some influence (e.g. Badiou) are critical of the cultural revolution. >and for all we know, they continue to do so So it's a superstition? >The M.O. is certainly similar. Which mainstream leftist organizations (mainstream enough to guide the course of the modern "radical left") approve of state-sanctioned murder and imprisonment of intellectuals? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Ideology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Ideolog...
  - zozbot234 6y ago
    > One of the largest "radical leftist" groups in the West is Antifa, but from what I know, it's hard to see any Maoism (or Maoist ideas) present in its members "The modern Antifa movement has its roots in the West German Außerparlamentarische Opposition left-wing student movement ... The first Antifa groups in this tradition were founded by the Maoist Communist League in the early 1970s. From the late 1980s, West Germany's squatter scene and left-wing autonomism movement were the main contributors to the new Antifa movement ..." The reference to "autonomism" implies a historical link to "revolutionary spontaneism" groups who, generally speaking, were especially enthusiastic about Marxism-Leninism-Maoism (that is, Mao Zedong Thought as "transferred" to the Western context) and the CR in particular. It might be hard to believe, but the links are quite clear once you do some digging. > The Sino-Soviet split and the ascension of Deng liberalizing China has practically deadened Maoist ideology in the West. Maybe so in the United States, but it did not have the same outcome elsewhere in the West. (And the real turning point was Nixon going to China, that made overt references to Maoist China somewhat unpalatable for radicals in the U.S. and to some extent the UK. Changes in deeper ideology are not nearly as easy or quick, however.)
    - claudiawerner 6y ago
      You're again using a historical example to characterize the extent of the current sway of a particular intellectual heritage, and a tenuous one at that: autonomism does not imply revolutionary spontaneism at all (again, evidence please!), and it is rather closer associated with left-communism, a historical and current communist movement best associated with early Lenin and a return to Marx, rejecting Stalinism and Maoism. Operaismo/workerism and later autonomism rejected Third-Worldism, even in a time when it was popular. "The plight of Trotskyism had been even more bleak, reduced to eking out a semi-clandestine existence within the PCI. Neither of these fates par-ticularly appealed to the editors of Classe Operaia; nor, for that matter, did they show any great interest in the first murmurings of Italian Maoism. Their reasons for such diffidence, beyond the vagaries of sectarian politiCS, were rational enough, being based on the realisation that a new organisation unable to command the support of a large slice of the working class was doomed to failure. This lesson, moreover, had been reinforced for the Venetians by their unsuccessful attempts to build workplace committees outside the offiCial labour movement, a failure that led them temporarily to advance a more cautious approach to autonomous organisation. Both the Northerners and Romans, then, were initially united in rejecting what they called 'Trotskyist tactics' and 'Chinese dances' (Tronti 1966: 32), even if their motives for doing so were rather different." (from Storming Heaven by Steve Wright[0]). You're going to need a stronger case than saying that the West German movement was Maoist and therefore Antifa in the US and elsewhere today is Maoist too - especially when you contradict your own claim that by the 1980s they'd moved on to autonomism. Please provide an analysis of the prevalence of Maoism or Maoist ideas as it exists today within the mainstream American radical left. [0] https://libcom.org/files/Wright%20S%20-%20Storming%20Heaven%20-%20Class%20Composition%20and%20Struggle%20in%20Italian%20Autonomist%20Marxism%20OCR.pdf https://libcom.org/files/Wright%20S%20-%20Storming%20Heaven%...
- mcguire 6y ago
  Source? There is a direct line of descent between the Nazi government in Germany and the current space efforts, too.
  - deleted 6y ago
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- deleted 6y ago
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- cpursley 6y ago
  Maybe it's not direct yet. And that's what makes me a little nervous about where this all could head. If people are willing to hunt and cancel people without giving the accused a chance to even defend themselves (leading to reputation, job loss, etc), physical harm seems like the next logical step.
  - iron0013 6y ago
    Meanwhile, protestors are now routinely being run over by actual physical automobiles driven by right-wing terrorists (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-rise-as-extremists-target-protesters https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-ris...). But sure, the hypothetical harm done at some future date by progressive-minded folks is far more concerning.
    - cpursley 6y ago
      This sounds terrible. Can you provide some recent sources including proof of the drivers motivations?
      - iron0013 6y ago
        https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-rise-as-extremists-target-protesters https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-ris... I suppose you could say that being a kkk member, or shouting racist abuse at protestors before hitting the gas and plowing into them doesn’t count as proof of the drivers’ motivations, but, well, you would say that, wouldn’t you Chase?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        cpursley 6y ago
        Just because you were upset enough to look up and call me out by my name does not mean you know anything about me and what I think.
- cafard 6y ago
  The last American 1970s Maoist I met (ca. 2005) was by then an investment manager. There are Marxists nostalgists out there, but not many. The left is much more into identity politics these days.
lliamander 6y ago
> Comparisons with mass killings and state-orchestrated oppression is an odd choice, Coordinated attempts to ruin peoples ability to earn a living is pretty bad. It also strikes me that such economic terrorism could very well be the precursors to actual killing and state oppression. People who don't respect the right to liberty or property of others probably don't respect their right to life either. > with about the same amount of merit as saying that people critical of BLM have similar opinions of the Nazi regime. I agree with the point that our criticism needs to have some proportionality, but I don't think this particular comparison is entirely valid. In both the Cultural Revolution and the current Cancel Culture, the objective is the purging institutions of dissidents and the destruction of all artifacts of the old order (e.g. destruction of statues, including Frederick Douglass for some reason). Whatever the people participating in Cancel Culture believe, they are still following the Cultural Revolution template. Obviously the Cultural Revolution was far more violent, but I think that assuming such mass violence can't or won't happen here is mistaken. On the other hand, there are plenty of critics of BLM who are quite ardently against abusive policing, but either don't think the racial component is as central to the problem of authoritarian policing as BLM claims, or object to some of the other principles of BLM that have nothing to do with race or policing.
- claudiawerner 6y ago
  > It also strikes me that such economic terrorism could very well be the precursors to actual killing and state oppression. They could also not be. Even the phrasing of "economic terrorism" stretches both the terminology of economy and terrorism beyond what most people would consider by the terms. > People who don't respect the right to liberty or property of others probably don't respect their right to life either. Which of the 'cancel culture' advocates don't respect the right to liberty? I can understand they have arguments against the right to (private) property, but this seems far more abstract. >the objective is the purging institutions of dissidents and the destruction of all artifacts of the old order I have some recollection of Marcuse's argument that the qualitative, historical, and social differences between terrors and movements are increasingly being reduced to nothing by the popular consciousness who is only acquainted with them through one-off facts and cherry picking... >Whatever the people participating in Cancel Culture believe, they are still following the Cultural Revolution template. What is sufficient to constitute a 'template' here? Let me provide a concrete example; the anarchists of old frequently argued against the notion of human rights, the state, and property. Marx and his followers did the same. Who is following who's template here? As another commenter in this thread pointed out, when most people think of the cultural revolution, they're really not thinking about tearing down statues or call-outs on social media (or even newspapers!) from a mob only given power by association (and not, say, the state or weaponry). The comparison is almost entirely bunk, and it's a little surprising that Mao's atrocities are being reduced to tearing down statues of slave traders. BLM actually more closely resembles (again, I'm ignoring many qualitative differences here, since it seems to be fair game to do so in this discussion) the systematic removal of Marx and Lenin statues in Europe and especially Lukacs' and Engels' statues being removed recently.

zozbot234 6y ago

There is a direct line of descent between Maoist agitation in Western countries throughout the late-1960s and 1970s and the current radical left. They have explicitly approved of the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" in the past - often enthusiastically so - and for all we know, they continue to do so. The M.O. is certainly comparable.

throwanem 6y ago
That's the kind of sweeping claim that really needs to be sourced.
claudiawerner 6y ago
>There is a direct line of descent between Maoist agitation in Western countries throughout the late-1960s and 1970s and the current radical left. Do you have any sources I can read on this? If anything, it seems the radical left actually left Badiou and his ilk behind for the Frankfurt School, and even then, I'm doubtful as to what that intellectual heritage means to your average "radical leftist" today. This is all beside the point, however - is there a recent (from the past 20 years) poll or anything similar surveying the "radical left" (which, mind you, includes anti-statists and anarcho-Communists) on their opinion of the Cultural Revolution? One of the largest "radical leftist" groups in the West is Antifa, but from what I know, it's hard to see any Maoism (or Maoist ideas) present in its members[0]. The Sino-Soviet split and the ascension of Deng liberalizing China has practically deadened Maoist ideology in the West. You'd have a better (but still somewhat shaky) case to say the radical left today draws from Stalinism instead (as opposed to Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, etc.). >They have approved of the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" in the past To what degree? In what numbers? For example, I can't name a single leftist journal which the majority of contributors could be aligned with Maoist views, never mind views supporting the Cultural Revolution. Even the Maoists I know of with some influence (e.g. Badiou) are critical of the cultural revolution. >and for all we know, they continue to do so So it's a superstition? >The M.O. is certainly similar. Which mainstream leftist organizations (mainstream enough to guide the course of the modern "radical left") approve of state-sanctioned murder and imprisonment of intellectuals? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Ideology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States)#Ideolog...
- zozbot234 6y ago
  > One of the largest "radical leftist" groups in the West is Antifa, but from what I know, it's hard to see any Maoism (or Maoist ideas) present in its members "The modern Antifa movement has its roots in the West German Außerparlamentarische Opposition left-wing student movement ... The first Antifa groups in this tradition were founded by the Maoist Communist League in the early 1970s. From the late 1980s, West Germany's squatter scene and left-wing autonomism movement were the main contributors to the new Antifa movement ..." The reference to "autonomism" implies a historical link to "revolutionary spontaneism" groups who, generally speaking, were especially enthusiastic about Marxism-Leninism-Maoism (that is, Mao Zedong Thought as "transferred" to the Western context) and the CR in particular. It might be hard to believe, but the links are quite clear once you do some digging. > The Sino-Soviet split and the ascension of Deng liberalizing China has practically deadened Maoist ideology in the West. Maybe so in the United States, but it did not have the same outcome elsewhere in the West. (And the real turning point was Nixon going to China, that made overt references to Maoist China somewhat unpalatable for radicals in the U.S. and to some extent the UK. Changes in deeper ideology are not nearly as easy or quick, however.)
  - claudiawerner 6y ago
    You're again using a historical example to characterize the extent of the current sway of a particular intellectual heritage, and a tenuous one at that: autonomism does not imply revolutionary spontaneism at all (again, evidence please!), and it is rather closer associated with left-communism, a historical and current communist movement best associated with early Lenin and a return to Marx, rejecting Stalinism and Maoism. Operaismo/workerism and later autonomism rejected Third-Worldism, even in a time when it was popular. "The plight of Trotskyism had been even more bleak, reduced to eking out a semi-clandestine existence within the PCI. Neither of these fates par-ticularly appealed to the editors of Classe Operaia; nor, for that matter, did they show any great interest in the first murmurings of Italian Maoism. Their reasons for such diffidence, beyond the vagaries of sectarian politiCS, were rational enough, being based on the realisation that a new organisation unable to command the support of a large slice of the working class was doomed to failure. This lesson, moreover, had been reinforced for the Venetians by their unsuccessful attempts to build workplace committees outside the offiCial labour movement, a failure that led them temporarily to advance a more cautious approach to autonomous organisation. Both the Northerners and Romans, then, were initially united in rejecting what they called 'Trotskyist tactics' and 'Chinese dances' (Tronti 1966: 32), even if their motives for doing so were rather different." (from Storming Heaven by Steve Wright[0]). You're going to need a stronger case than saying that the West German movement was Maoist and therefore Antifa in the US and elsewhere today is Maoist too - especially when you contradict your own claim that by the 1980s they'd moved on to autonomism. Please provide an analysis of the prevalence of Maoism or Maoist ideas as it exists today within the mainstream American radical left. [0] https://libcom.org/files/Wright%20S%20-%20Storming%20Heaven%20-%20Class%20Composition%20and%20Struggle%20in%20Italian%20Autonomist%20Marxism%20OCR.pdf https://libcom.org/files/Wright%20S%20-%20Storming%20Heaven%...
mcguire 6y ago
Source? There is a direct line of descent between the Nazi government in Germany and the current space efforts, too.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cpursley 6y ago
Maybe it's not direct yet. And that's what makes me a little nervous about where this all could head. If people are willing to hunt and cancel people without giving the accused a chance to even defend themselves (leading to reputation, job loss, etc), physical harm seems like the next logical step.
- iron0013 6y ago
  Meanwhile, protestors are now routinely being run over by actual physical automobiles driven by right-wing terrorists (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-rise-as-extremists-target-protesters https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-ris...). But sure, the hypothetical harm done at some future date by progressive-minded folks is far more concerning.
  - cpursley 6y ago
    This sounds terrible. Can you provide some recent sources including proof of the drivers motivations?
    - iron0013 6y ago
      https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-rise-as-extremists-target-protesters https://www.npr.org/2020/06/21/880963592/vehicle-attacks-ris... I suppose you could say that being a kkk member, or shouting racist abuse at protestors before hitting the gas and plowing into them doesn’t count as proof of the drivers’ motivations, but, well, you would say that, wouldn’t you Chase?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - cpursley 6y ago
        Just because you were upset enough to look up and call me out by my name does not mean you know anything about me and what I think.
cafard 6y ago
The last American 1970s Maoist I met (ca. 2005) was by then an investment manager. There are Marxists nostalgists out there, but not many. The left is much more into identity politics these days.

lliamander 6y ago

> Comparisons with mass killings and state-orchestrated oppression is an odd choice, Coordinated attempts to ruin peoples ability to earn a living is pretty bad. It also strikes me that such economic terrorism could very well be the precursors to actual killing and state oppression. People who don't respect the right to liberty or property of others probably don't respect their right to life either. > with about the same amount of merit as saying that people critical of BLM have similar opinions of the Nazi regime. I agree with the point that our criticism needs to have some proportionality, but I don't think this particular comparison is entirely valid. In both the Cultural Revolution and the current Cancel Culture, the objective is the purging institutions of dissidents and the destruction of all artifacts of the old order (e.g. destruction of statues, including Frederick Douglass for some reason). Whatever the people participating in Cancel Culture believe, they are still following the Cultural Revolution template. Obviously the Cultural Revolution was far more violent, but I think that assuming such mass violence can't or won't happen here is mistaken. On the other hand, there are plenty of critics of BLM who are quite ardently against abusive policing, but either don't think the racial component is as central to the problem of authoritarian policing as BLM claims, or object to some of the other principles of BLM that have nothing to do with race or policing.

claudiawerner 6y ago
> It also strikes me that such economic terrorism could very well be the precursors to actual killing and state oppression. They could also not be. Even the phrasing of "economic terrorism" stretches both the terminology of economy and terrorism beyond what most people would consider by the terms. > People who don't respect the right to liberty or property of others probably don't respect their right to life either. Which of the 'cancel culture' advocates don't respect the right to liberty? I can understand they have arguments against the right to (private) property, but this seems far more abstract. >the objective is the purging institutions of dissidents and the destruction of all artifacts of the old order I have some recollection of Marcuse's argument that the qualitative, historical, and social differences between terrors and movements are increasingly being reduced to nothing by the popular consciousness who is only acquainted with them through one-off facts and cherry picking... >Whatever the people participating in Cancel Culture believe, they are still following the Cultural Revolution template. What is sufficient to constitute a 'template' here? Let me provide a concrete example; the anarchists of old frequently argued against the notion of human rights, the state, and property. Marx and his followers did the same. Who is following who's template here? As another commenter in this thread pointed out, when most people think of the cultural revolution, they're really not thinking about tearing down statues or call-outs on social media (or even newspapers!) from a mob only given power by association (and not, say, the state or weaponry). The comparison is almost entirely bunk, and it's a little surprising that Mao's atrocities are being reduced to tearing down statues of slave traders. BLM actually more closely resembles (again, I'm ignoring many qualitative differences here, since it seems to be fair game to do so in this discussion) the systematic removal of Marx and Lenin statues in Europe and especially Lukacs' and Engels' statues being removed recently.