5 ms·

> That would explain "safe spaces" to some degree -- people don't want the pressure of having someone else try to convince them of something they don't agree wi

> That would explain "safe spaces" to some degree -- people don't want the pressure of having someone else try to convince them of something they don't agree with. In my experience, it's more that people don't try to convince. Hell, the people who need safe-spaces, and the people they're trying to be "safe" from, don't even share the underlying epistemic assumptions that would allow them to "convince" each-other of anything less clearly observable than the sky being blue. The latter group, the people who other people need to be "safe" from, usually just scream, berate, harass, and often resort to violence. (Note that I've avoided identifying "which side" is which. The answer is: it depends which side is dominant in your particular area. Boston and San Francisco and Brooklyn are left-dominant. Middle America is right-dominant.)

tsimionescu 6y ago
No place in the US is left-dominant (this is true of most of Europe as well). There are right-dominant areas and centrist-dominant areas. Left discourse (think Chomsky) is extremely rare and almost never accepted in the media.
- leftyted 6y ago
  > Left discourse (think Chomsky) is extremely rare and almost never accepted in the media. It must really baffle you that Chomsky signed this letter.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    Why would it? There is a real problem with lack of tolerance of opposing ideas and witch hunting, obviously on the right but also in the center and even on the left. And I have seen a lot of people on the left raising this problem and discussing how this will ultimately be used against them when, even when today it is done for mlre left-leaning goals. I think Professor Chomsky is extremely well aware of how easily tools of censorship are wielded against the voices of the minority. And note that a lot of the grand-standing and calls to boycotts on these issues is coming from liberals, not leftists.
- rayiner 6y ago
  This is untrue when applied to social/cultural political issues. For example, the prevailing view during the Democratic primaries that undocumented immigrants should get universal healthcare coverage is to the left of nearly every EU country. Trump’s order required enhanced scrutiny of immigrants from certain Muslim countries is tame compared to Macron’s plans to essentially nationalize Islam. (And Macron is the left candidate—his far-right opponent is now receiving 45% of the support in polls.) Canada’s point-based immigration system, supported by the left and the right there, which heavily weighs English language fluency, would be denounced as irredeemably racist by the mainstream left in the US. What we are seeing in the media now, with attacks on the country’s founding documents and historical figures, would be utterly condemned in say France. On social issues, our left is as far left as anywhere else in the developed world.
  - jahaja 6y ago
    > And Macron is the left candidate—his far-right opponent is now receiving 45% of the support in polls. A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate. Maybe in the US that rhetoric works, but not in the EU. What poll are you referring to where Macron's far-right opponent received 45%? Le Pen has 26% - less than Macron - from what I can see [0]. [0] https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/
    - rayiner 6y ago
      > A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate. He's the more left candidate for purposes of this comparison, which is to compare where the U.S. is relative to France. So if Macron is to the right of Trump on muslim immigrants (and I think it's fair to say he is), and 45% of French support a candidate that is even further right, I think it's fair to say the U.S. is well to the left of France on the issue. I was citing a head-to-head matchup in the second round: https://www.ft.com/content/6d8b9c7a-412c-11ea-a047-eae9bd51ceba https://www.ft.com/content/6d8b9c7a-412c-11ea-a047-eae9bd51c... > A recent Ifop opinion poll put Ms Le Pen narrowly ahead of Mr Macron for an assumed first round of the 2022 election, and within a few percentage points of victory in the second round (45 per cent to his 55 per cent)
- eli_gottlieb 6y ago
  I wasn't talking about "the media", but you're just being silly if you can go to a meeting of the Cambridge or Somerville City Councils (a majority of the latter are DSA members or allies, IIRC), or get involved in San Francisco's local politics, and think the Left (ie: the kind of Left that references Chomsky) is an insignificant force in those local contexts.

tsimionescu 6y ago

No place in the US is left-dominant (this is true of most of Europe as well). There are right-dominant areas and centrist-dominant areas. Left discourse (think Chomsky) is extremely rare and almost never accepted in the media.

leftyted 6y ago
> Left discourse (think Chomsky) is extremely rare and almost never accepted in the media. It must really baffle you that Chomsky signed this letter.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  Why would it? There is a real problem with lack of tolerance of opposing ideas and witch hunting, obviously on the right but also in the center and even on the left. And I have seen a lot of people on the left raising this problem and discussing how this will ultimately be used against them when, even when today it is done for mlre left-leaning goals. I think Professor Chomsky is extremely well aware of how easily tools of censorship are wielded against the voices of the minority. And note that a lot of the grand-standing and calls to boycotts on these issues is coming from liberals, not leftists.
rayiner 6y ago
This is untrue when applied to social/cultural political issues. For example, the prevailing view during the Democratic primaries that undocumented immigrants should get universal healthcare coverage is to the left of nearly every EU country. Trump’s order required enhanced scrutiny of immigrants from certain Muslim countries is tame compared to Macron’s plans to essentially nationalize Islam. (And Macron is the left candidate—his far-right opponent is now receiving 45% of the support in polls.) Canada’s point-based immigration system, supported by the left and the right there, which heavily weighs English language fluency, would be denounced as irredeemably racist by the mainstream left in the US. What we are seeing in the media now, with attacks on the country’s founding documents and historical figures, would be utterly condemned in say France. On social issues, our left is as far left as anywhere else in the developed world.
- jahaja 6y ago
  > And Macron is the left candidate—his far-right opponent is now receiving 45% of the support in polls. A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate. Maybe in the US that rhetoric works, but not in the EU. What poll are you referring to where Macron's far-right opponent received 45%? Le Pen has 26% - less than Macron - from what I can see [0]. [0] https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/ https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/france/
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > A centre-right candidate doesn't become "left" just because there's a far-right candidate. He's the more left candidate for purposes of this comparison, which is to compare where the U.S. is relative to France. So if Macron is to the right of Trump on muslim immigrants (and I think it's fair to say he is), and 45% of French support a candidate that is even further right, I think it's fair to say the U.S. is well to the left of France on the issue. I was citing a head-to-head matchup in the second round: https://www.ft.com/content/6d8b9c7a-412c-11ea-a047-eae9bd51ceba https://www.ft.com/content/6d8b9c7a-412c-11ea-a047-eae9bd51c... > A recent Ifop opinion poll put Ms Le Pen narrowly ahead of Mr Macron for an assumed first round of the 2022 election, and within a few percentage points of victory in the second round (45 per cent to his 55 per cent)
eli_gottlieb 6y ago
I wasn't talking about "the media", but you're just being silly if you can go to a meeting of the Cambridge or Somerville City Councils (a majority of the latter are DSA members or allies, IIRC), or get involved in San Francisco's local politics, and think the Left (ie: the kind of Left that references Chomsky) is an insignificant force in those local contexts.