5 ms·

“It’s the law” is a terrible rationale though. Our values should inform our laws and their interpretation, not the other way around. There is a clear externali

“It’s the law” is a terrible rationale though. Our values should inform our laws and their interpretation, not the other way around. There is a clear externality forcing this situation and it is clearly more detrimental to force them out of the country than to just make special accommodations/provisions. Pass a bill if that makes it more palatable and set it to have a termination date with the ability to “re-up” if this situation continues. But shrugging and going “them’s the rules” when it suits us and being flexible elsewhere (freelancers getting unemployment benefits, for instance) seems arbitrary and, frankly, capricious.

colechristensen 6y ago
Some logic needs to come in too though, what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? Student visas make good sense, allow people from around the world to come here and get an education which is better or different and have a cultural exchange... but if coming here just gets you the cultural exchange of going to the grocery store and watching lectures online that could be watched from anywhere... what's the point? I personally have a problem with how international students are used as cash cows and then later often as a lower class of intellectual labor in labs (I have heard first hand stories of this happening, more than once). When universities have an ample supply of people willing to do anything in order to get citizenship, the people who don't have that circumstance are pushed out because of the poor conditions enabled by the many people who accept it. Career academia sucks. Grads and post grads are paid little and way overworked chasing after the dream of a rare tenured faculty position.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Yet, they continued to come over and do this. They likely had a reason. Whether its prestige, a cultural experience, available work contacts post-study or whatever. And as for 'lower class intellectual labor', lets talk medical Residents? Years of indentured servitude post-doc. And we consider that reasonable.
- zasz 6y ago
  Not every international student has a good internet connection at home, and collaborating with students in the US could be extremely different if they come from a very different time zone.
  - bruceb 6y ago
    If you can study in the US, generally you are not poor. You are paying high rent in the US. They can afford more than one internet connection with mostly likly significantly reduce living costs.
    - filoleg 6y ago
      Not just "generally". People bemoan high costs of college education in the US (and I tend to agree with them), not realizing that for international students, the tuition pricing alone can be easily twice the cost it is for out-of-state-students (which is already at least twice the cost for in-state students). International students pay twice the price of tuition alone, not even mentioning all other extra expenses they have to pay. And since they cannot utilize a lot of financial aid available to US residents (federal student loans, certain scholarships, etc.), they pretty much have to have a lot of money in cash to be able to just pay for college. Note: I am not saying that since they are very likely rich, they deserve to deal with all those struggles. And I get it, there could be some international students who come from a far-from-wealthy family, where all their money were pooled towards their college education. That seems to be a rare exception though, from what I have observed (haven't met a single international student like that, but plenty of the former kind).
  - mc32 6y ago
    That would be a slim minority. Most intl students are in au courant language “privileged” and are either upper middle or at least middle class. Very few live the life of a lower stratum American.
- drfuchs 6y ago
  One point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet is that they're in the right time zone, and don't have to stay up all night to attend classes and other sessions (with the known negative health effects of doing so, along with how to handle the fact that the rest of the family is sharing small living quarters that makes 2am classes a problem for the whole family).
- msbarnett 6y ago
  > what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? They're two years into a program, didn't create the circumstances that are forcing them to take their education entirely online, and the notion that they can return to their home country and participate in classes that might be happening at 3:00 am local time seems pretty far fetched? Most of these upper-level online classes are participatory, not Coursera-style "watch a recording".
- BolexNOLA 6y ago
  They’re already here, travel is potentially dangerous (especially a large exodus of international students), time zone issues, ability to pick back up where they left off easily, possible local employment/internships, apartments/hoisting they’re under a lease for, the undoubtedly insane cluster it’ll be when folks try to return...the list goes on dude. That’s off the top of my head. Surely you can see how burdensome this “solution” is?
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    I am not trying to take a side but adding a point or two worth consideration.

colechristensen 6y ago

Some logic needs to come in too though, what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? Student visas make good sense, allow people from around the world to come here and get an education which is better or different and have a cultural exchange... but if coming here just gets you the cultural exchange of going to the grocery store and watching lectures online that could be watched from anywhere... what's the point? I personally have a problem with how international students are used as cash cows and then later often as a lower class of intellectual labor in labs (I have heard first hand stories of this happening, more than once). When universities have an ample supply of people willing to do anything in order to get citizenship, the people who don't have that circumstance are pushed out because of the poor conditions enabled by the many people who accept it. Career academia sucks. Grads and post grads are paid little and way overworked chasing after the dream of a rare tenured faculty position.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Yet, they continued to come over and do this. They likely had a reason. Whether its prestige, a cultural experience, available work contacts post-study or whatever. And as for 'lower class intellectual labor', lets talk medical Residents? Years of indentured servitude post-doc. And we consider that reasonable.
zasz 6y ago
Not every international student has a good internet connection at home, and collaborating with students in the US could be extremely different if they come from a very different time zone.
- bruceb 6y ago
  If you can study in the US, generally you are not poor. You are paying high rent in the US. They can afford more than one internet connection with mostly likly significantly reduce living costs.
  - filoleg 6y ago
    Not just "generally". People bemoan high costs of college education in the US (and I tend to agree with them), not realizing that for international students, the tuition pricing alone can be easily twice the cost it is for out-of-state-students (which is already at least twice the cost for in-state students). International students pay twice the price of tuition alone, not even mentioning all other extra expenses they have to pay. And since they cannot utilize a lot of financial aid available to US residents (federal student loans, certain scholarships, etc.), they pretty much have to have a lot of money in cash to be able to just pay for college. Note: I am not saying that since they are very likely rich, they deserve to deal with all those struggles. And I get it, there could be some international students who come from a far-from-wealthy family, where all their money were pooled towards their college education. That seems to be a rare exception though, from what I have observed (haven't met a single international student like that, but plenty of the former kind).
- mc32 6y ago
  That would be a slim minority. Most intl students are in au courant language “privileged” and are either upper middle or at least middle class. Very few live the life of a lower stratum American.
drfuchs 6y ago
One point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet is that they're in the right time zone, and don't have to stay up all night to attend classes and other sessions (with the known negative health effects of doing so, along with how to handle the fact that the rest of the family is sharing small living quarters that makes 2am classes a problem for the whole family).
msbarnett 6y ago
> what is the point of an international student renting an apartment in the US and taking a class over the Internet? They're two years into a program, didn't create the circumstances that are forcing them to take their education entirely online, and the notion that they can return to their home country and participate in classes that might be happening at 3:00 am local time seems pretty far fetched? Most of these upper-level online classes are participatory, not Coursera-style "watch a recording".
BolexNOLA 6y ago
They’re already here, travel is potentially dangerous (especially a large exodus of international students), time zone issues, ability to pick back up where they left off easily, possible local employment/internships, apartments/hoisting they’re under a lease for, the undoubtedly insane cluster it’ll be when folks try to return...the list goes on dude. That’s off the top of my head. Surely you can see how burdensome this “solution” is?
- colechristensen 6y ago
  I am not trying to take a side but adding a point or two worth consideration.