4 ms·

Because that 1% of people are lives that still matter??? WTF... I can't believe this.

by midrus 6y ago

brink 6y ago
Of course they do. So advise the 1% that's at risk to quarantine until we get a vaccine.
- Pxtl 6y ago
  They tried that in Sweden and ended up killing a bunch of people.
  - FriendlyNormie 6y ago
    No one died. Eat shit faggot.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    Assuming an effective vaccine doesn't come anytime soon, which thusfar seems a safe assumption, other countries will have many deaths as well, just spread out more over the coming months/year[s?]. A flattened curve has the same area under it.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      Not the same 'died because of insufficient facilities' curve, not at all. Flattening is so healthcare capacity is not exceeded. Not-flattening has dire consequence, far beyond 'the same area under the curve'. Its the peaks of the curve that trigger the consequences.
      - catalogia 6y ago
        > Flattening is so healthcare capacity is not exceeded. Sweden avoided that scenario. Their system was strained but did not collapse. They're still on track to have the same area under their curve. > The pandemic has put the Swedish healthcare system under severe strain, with tens of thousands of operations having been postponed. Initially, Swedish hospitals and other facilities reported a shortage of personal protective equipment. At the start of the pandemic, concerns were made that Swedish hospitals wouldn't have enough capacity to treat all who could become ill with the disease, especially in regard to those needing intensive care. Swedish hospitals were eventually able to double the number of intensive care beds in a few weeks, and the maximum capacity was never exceeded. Furthermore while their number of cases per day has been growing rapidly, the number of ICU hospitalizations per day and deaths per day have both been falling since April. Reports of Sweden's demise have been greatly exaggerated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden Edit: > Compared to other Scandinavian nations, Sweden has experienced a much higher number of COVID-19 deaths; eight times that of Denmark and 19 times higher than Norway, despite being only twice those nations' populations Yes, that's exactly what you'd expect from a country that doesn't flatten their curve. A country that doesn't flatten their curve will have more deaths up front, but that doesn't mean they'll have more deaths in total when all is said and done.
        JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        I'm glad for them. What works in Sweden, may not work the same elsewhere.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        > Reports of Sweden's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Reports of Sweden's success are likely premature, though. The world has a long way left to go.
        catalogia 6y ago
        I don't think it's premature to say Sweden has been successful. It may not be over yet, but this trend is pretty clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden#Deaths_per_day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden#De...
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        The US chart of infections looked like that a few weeks back; things change quickly, especially if people get to thinking they're done. A second wave in Sweden (and elsewhere) would hardly be surprising.
        Pxtl 6y ago
        From wiki article > Compared to other Scandinavian nations, Sweden has experienced a much higher number of COVID-19 deaths; eight times that of Denmark and 19 times higher than Norway, despite being only twice those nations' populations
- SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
  This in unrealistic Sweden tried that and failed. It still imposed some limitations though, yet they have very large death rate. Besides, no one really know how susceptible he or she is to the disease; there are hundreds of examples of sickly 100+ old people having light cold and young seemingly healthy 35 y old people dying. Even more importantly, the diseases seems to have long term consequences even for the healthier people.
cbg0 6y ago
It's all just statistics until your loved ones are in the ICU because of covid.
matz1 6y ago
you can't expect 0% death, its unrealistic.
- neurobashing 6y ago
  This is a strawman. No one reasonable thinks that you can eliminate deaths. But, when all it takes to avoid _the majority_ of fatalities is some mask wearing, hand-washing, and effort on the part of institutions (testing, contact tracking, etc) you can avoid _unnecessary_ deaths quite well; see South Korea for an example.
FriendlyNormie 6y ago
I’d love to watch you die.
doliveira 6y ago
I'd argue that this year we've learned that the percentage of psychopathy in the general population is way higher than the 2% I've seen being estimated before.
- meddlepal 6y ago
  I would argue our relentless pursuit of data driven outcomes and return on investment thinking has skewed the way people think about other human beings. We are just seeing the impact of that now as we face a significant enough species impacting event. Fun times.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Not to be insensitive, but we can’t assume a vaccine will be developed. Flattening the curve of infection (under this assumption) still has a similar area under the curve... (i.e. people are going to get infected, people are going to die because the virus is not going away).
- MiroF 6y ago
  Well the original attempt was to close to eliminate it, like many of our peer nations have done. Since we've failed at that, it's going to be touch and go so that we flatten it.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    Not likely possible unless all travel between nations is halted. Also, places like north korea will still access China which the world doesn’t trust in regards to data fidelity. Since we can’t have perfect access to information, it is impossible to stop the virus without a vaccine (and a vaccine might not be developed ever, this might be like HIV where 700k people die a year)
- roywiggins 6y ago
  One point of flattening the curve is so people won't die waiting for a hospital bed to open up. Some of those people would have died anyway, but not all of them. Even supportive care like oxygen and intubation does actually seem to save some lives, and doctors are getting better at it with time. Additionally, treatments are getting better. Do you want to get sick in 6 months when everyone can get remdesivir and Regeneron's antibody therapy[0], or do you want to get it during a spike where you can't even be treated? [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/07/06/regeneron-antibody-therapy-for-covid-19-enters-late-stage-trials/#30a21305117c https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/07/06/regener...
- redblacktree 6y ago
  Don't discount treatment methodologies. People who get the virus now are more likely to live than those who got it early, since health professionals are learning which treatments work. The area under the curve will not be the same if we buy time for our doctors and researchers to understand more about the virus and its effect on the body.
gizmo 6y ago
We didn't lock down for the Hong Kong flu or similar pandemics, because the damage caused by a lockdown is immense. Health damage caused by delayed cancer screenings and organ transplants. Psychological damage caused by lockdown and unemployment. Unbelievable economic damage. How to respond to a pandemic is a trade-off. People die in traffic accidents every day. Do we set a nation-wide speed limit of 5 MPH? No. Of course not. We accept that the benefit of travel are worth it, and we strive to make travel safer because every death is a tragedy. That's a balanced approach. For mild pandemics we should also seek such a balanced approach where we protect the old and the vulnerable and let everybody else live life as normal.
- doliveira 6y ago
  Yours remind me of a comment from an (in)famous Brazilian political commenter that claimed that "more people die by choking" at the beginning of the pandemic.
  - gizmo 6y ago
    Many people have made statements that didn't age well. Hopefully you haven't forgotten about the ludicrous statements made by prominent epidemiologists, virologists and organizations like the WHO. Meanwhile we could trust the news to produce panic porn 24/7. Mass graves in Central Park! Sweden is doing an experiment in Human Sacrifice! Hopefully when the pandemic dies down we'll reflect on how the media and the scientific community completely failed to inform the people.
- SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
  Hong Kong flu was significantly less deadly than Covid in United states, perhaps 3 to 10 times. NYC death rate is at least .2% which would translate to 600 000 death across the US, and that is a very rough estimate. Even more importantly without lockdowns you'd get even worse clusterhell in the hospitals, which would have to do triage between neverneding stream of Covid patients and "normal" patients, who need an urgent surgery, and that would lead to enormous death rate rise so your argument is backwards actually.
burgerzzz 6y ago
I find this ironic in that the same people now suddenly believe every single life needs to be protected were the same people who supported drone strikes throughout the Middle East when it was Obama taking the lives. Now the "other guys" are risking lives and it's politically expedient, so everyone on one side of the political spectrum just joins this chorus of every life matters sans critical thought, devoid of any want or curiosity about the actual facts.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  Depending on who you ask, drone strikes have killed somewhere between a couple hundred and a couple thousand civilians. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._...) 1% of the world is 78 million people dead. (The virus won't hit 100% of people, but the numbers are already in the hundreds of thousands worldwide.)
  - burgerzzz 6y ago
    So because it was a smaller number, they’re less important? All I’m asking (and it applies to everyone of any political ideology) is where is the outrage when your favored party either allows or is responsible outright for deaths? Also, unintentional deaths are in the same ballpark as coronavirus deaths, why don’t we criminalize vehicles, bubble wrap our homes, or avoid anything that could possibly harm us? It’s a fair question in my mind.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      > So because it was a smaller number, they’re less important? On a public policy level, sure. A million deaths tends to matter more than a thousand. This is hardly controversial. > Also, unintentional deaths are in the same ballpark as coronavirus deaths, why don’t we criminalize vehicles, bubble wrap our homes, or avoid anything that could possibly harm us? We do the cost/benefit analysis on a lot of such things. Cars are now larger, heavier, and more expensive because we've added various things that make occupants safer. Building codes have done the same for houses.

Because that 1% of people are lives that still matter??? WTF... I can't believe this.

by midrus 6y ago

Because that 1% of people are lives that still matter??? WTF... I can't believe this.

brink 6y ago

Of course they do. So advise the 1% that's at risk to quarantine until we get a vaccine.

Pxtl 6y ago
They tried that in Sweden and ended up killing a bunch of people.
- FriendlyNormie 6y ago
  No one died. Eat shit faggot.
- catalogia 6y ago
  Assuming an effective vaccine doesn't come anytime soon, which thusfar seems a safe assumption, other countries will have many deaths as well, just spread out more over the coming months/year[s?]. A flattened curve has the same area under it.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Not the same 'died because of insufficient facilities' curve, not at all. Flattening is so healthcare capacity is not exceeded. Not-flattening has dire consequence, far beyond 'the same area under the curve'. Its the peaks of the curve that trigger the consequences.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      > Flattening is so healthcare capacity is not exceeded. Sweden avoided that scenario. Their system was strained but did not collapse. They're still on track to have the same area under their curve. > The pandemic has put the Swedish healthcare system under severe strain, with tens of thousands of operations having been postponed. Initially, Swedish hospitals and other facilities reported a shortage of personal protective equipment. At the start of the pandemic, concerns were made that Swedish hospitals wouldn't have enough capacity to treat all who could become ill with the disease, especially in regard to those needing intensive care. Swedish hospitals were eventually able to double the number of intensive care beds in a few weeks, and the maximum capacity was never exceeded. Furthermore while their number of cases per day has been growing rapidly, the number of ICU hospitalizations per day and deaths per day have both been falling since April. Reports of Sweden's demise have been greatly exaggerated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden Edit: > Compared to other Scandinavian nations, Sweden has experienced a much higher number of COVID-19 deaths; eight times that of Denmark and 19 times higher than Norway, despite being only twice those nations' populations Yes, that's exactly what you'd expect from a country that doesn't flatten their curve. A country that doesn't flatten their curve will have more deaths up front, but that doesn't mean they'll have more deaths in total when all is said and done.
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        I'm glad for them. What works in Sweden, may not work the same elsewhere.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > Reports of Sweden's demise have been greatly exaggerated. Reports of Sweden's success are likely premature, though. The world has a long way left to go.
        catalogia 6y ago
        I don't think it's premature to say Sweden has been successful. It may not be over yet, but this trend is pretty clear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden#Deaths_per_day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Sweden#De...
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        The US chart of infections looked like that a few weeks back; things change quickly, especially if people get to thinking they're done. A second wave in Sweden (and elsewhere) would hardly be surprising.
      - Pxtl 6y ago
        From wiki article > Compared to other Scandinavian nations, Sweden has experienced a much higher number of COVID-19 deaths; eight times that of Denmark and 19 times higher than Norway, despite being only twice those nations' populations
SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
This in unrealistic Sweden tried that and failed. It still imposed some limitations though, yet they have very large death rate. Besides, no one really know how susceptible he or she is to the disease; there are hundreds of examples of sickly 100+ old people having light cold and young seemingly healthy 35 y old people dying. Even more importantly, the diseases seems to have long term consequences even for the healthier people.

cbg0 6y ago

It's all just statistics until your loved ones are in the ICU because of covid.

matz1 6y ago

you can't expect 0% death, its unrealistic.

neurobashing 6y ago
This is a strawman. No one reasonable thinks that you can eliminate deaths. But, when all it takes to avoid _the majority_ of fatalities is some mask wearing, hand-washing, and effort on the part of institutions (testing, contact tracking, etc) you can avoid _unnecessary_ deaths quite well; see South Korea for an example.

FriendlyNormie 6y ago

I’d love to watch you die.

doliveira 6y ago

I'd argue that this year we've learned that the percentage of psychopathy in the general population is way higher than the 2% I've seen being estimated before.

meddlepal 6y ago
I would argue our relentless pursuit of data driven outcomes and return on investment thinking has skewed the way people think about other human beings. We are just seeing the impact of that now as we face a significant enough species impacting event. Fun times.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

Not to be insensitive, but we can’t assume a vaccine will be developed. Flattening the curve of infection (under this assumption) still has a similar area under the curve... (i.e. people are going to get infected, people are going to die because the virus is not going away).

MiroF 6y ago
Well the original attempt was to close to eliminate it, like many of our peer nations have done. Since we've failed at that, it's going to be touch and go so that we flatten it.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Not likely possible unless all travel between nations is halted. Also, places like north korea will still access China which the world doesn’t trust in regards to data fidelity. Since we can’t have perfect access to information, it is impossible to stop the virus without a vaccine (and a vaccine might not be developed ever, this might be like HIV where 700k people die a year)
roywiggins 6y ago
One point of flattening the curve is so people won't die waiting for a hospital bed to open up. Some of those people would have died anyway, but not all of them. Even supportive care like oxygen and intubation does actually seem to save some lives, and doctors are getting better at it with time. Additionally, treatments are getting better. Do you want to get sick in 6 months when everyone can get remdesivir and Regeneron's antibody therapy[0], or do you want to get it during a spike where you can't even be treated? [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/07/06/regeneron-antibody-therapy-for-covid-19-enters-late-stage-trials/#30a21305117c https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2020/07/06/regener...
redblacktree 6y ago
Don't discount treatment methodologies. People who get the virus now are more likely to live than those who got it early, since health professionals are learning which treatments work. The area under the curve will not be the same if we buy time for our doctors and researchers to understand more about the virus and its effect on the body.

gizmo 6y ago

We didn't lock down for the Hong Kong flu or similar pandemics, because the damage caused by a lockdown is immense. Health damage caused by delayed cancer screenings and organ transplants. Psychological damage caused by lockdown and unemployment. Unbelievable economic damage. How to respond to a pandemic is a trade-off. People die in traffic accidents every day. Do we set a nation-wide speed limit of 5 MPH? No. Of course not. We accept that the benefit of travel are worth it, and we strive to make travel safer because every death is a tragedy. That's a balanced approach. For mild pandemics we should also seek such a balanced approach where we protect the old and the vulnerable and let everybody else live life as normal.

doliveira 6y ago
Yours remind me of a comment from an (in)famous Brazilian political commenter that claimed that "more people die by choking" at the beginning of the pandemic.
- gizmo 6y ago
  Many people have made statements that didn't age well. Hopefully you haven't forgotten about the ludicrous statements made by prominent epidemiologists, virologists and organizations like the WHO. Meanwhile we could trust the news to produce panic porn 24/7. Mass graves in Central Park! Sweden is doing an experiment in Human Sacrifice! Hopefully when the pandemic dies down we'll reflect on how the media and the scientific community completely failed to inform the people.
SomeoneFromCA 6y ago
Hong Kong flu was significantly less deadly than Covid in United states, perhaps 3 to 10 times. NYC death rate is at least .2% which would translate to 600 000 death across the US, and that is a very rough estimate. Even more importantly without lockdowns you'd get even worse clusterhell in the hospitals, which would have to do triage between neverneding stream of Covid patients and "normal" patients, who need an urgent surgery, and that would lead to enormous death rate rise so your argument is backwards actually.

burgerzzz 6y ago

I find this ironic in that the same people now suddenly believe every single life needs to be protected were the same people who supported drone strikes throughout the Middle East when it was Obama taking the lives. Now the "other guys" are risking lives and it's politically expedient, so everyone on one side of the political spectrum just joins this chorus of every life matters sans critical thought, devoid of any want or curiosity about the actual facts.

ceejayoz 6y ago
Depending on who you ask, drone strikes have killed somewhere between a couple hundred and a couple thousand civilians. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._drone_strikes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_U.S._...) 1% of the world is 78 million people dead. (The virus won't hit 100% of people, but the numbers are already in the hundreds of thousands worldwide.)
- burgerzzz 6y ago
  So because it was a smaller number, they’re less important? All I’m asking (and it applies to everyone of any political ideology) is where is the outrage when your favored party either allows or is responsible outright for deaths? Also, unintentional deaths are in the same ballpark as coronavirus deaths, why don’t we criminalize vehicles, bubble wrap our homes, or avoid anything that could possibly harm us? It’s a fair question in my mind.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    > So because it was a smaller number, they’re less important? On a public policy level, sure. A million deaths tends to matter more than a thousand. This is hardly controversial. > Also, unintentional deaths are in the same ballpark as coronavirus deaths, why don’t we criminalize vehicles, bubble wrap our homes, or avoid anything that could possibly harm us? We do the cost/benefit analysis on a lot of such things. Cars are now larger, heavier, and more expensive because we've added various things that make occupants safer. Building codes have done the same for houses.