7 ms·

> Nobody's saying that men who falsely claim to be women should have access to women's spaces. What are they saying?

by lliamander 6y ago

Pulcinella 6y ago
That trans women are women.
- lliamander 6y ago
  In what sense? That is, in terms of their gender, or their sex, or both?
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    "Women" is not a sex. You don't see people saying "trans women are biologically female" for a reason.
    - newen 6y ago
      Things are getting just a little bit ridiculous in America when you have people saying "women" is not a sex.
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        Not at all. It's a gender. Can you elaborate on what makes that statement so ridiculous on it's face?
        cfmcdonald 6y ago
        If you check a dictionary, the top definition for "woman" is typically something like "an adult female person" or "an adult female human." So the claim that woman/man is a totally different thing from male/female is pretty novel.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        Indeed, I bring this up elsewhere, but there's been a lot of overlap of the medical and the social throughout history. That's changed recently. I don't see how that makes things "ridiculous" to quote GP.
        lliamander 6y ago
        How widespread are those changes though? The Wikipedia article on Sex Differences in Humans uses the terms man/woman and male/female interchangeably[1]. What little I've seen of the scientific literature follows this convention as well. It's my experience that, across a broad swath of American society, that many people follow the old convention as well. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        To be honest, I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make here. Yes, in most contexts in present western society, male/female and man/woman are interchangeable (and certain groups have a vested interest in maintaining this state). There are however contexts in which they are not. Trans people (and allies) need to be cognizant of these things to be able to discuss the differences. If your argument is that to an observer, "trans women are women" could be interpreted as "trans women are biologically female", then sure one could interpret it that way. But in the context of discussions about trans people, women and female mean different things, which is why "trans women are women" is the phrase, and not "trans women are biologically female". That dictionaries haven't caught up is kind of disappointing, but if you look at the wiki page, it mentions trans women at the end, which seems kind of strange to do in the context of biological female-ness. I'll also note that because it's so common to conflate the two, that I try to explicitly add the "biologically" modifier when discussing bio sex. in contexts not talking about trans groups, I'm sure I've conflated the terms without noticing.
        lliamander 6y ago
      - babycake 6y ago
        male/female are biological descriptions. Men/Women are social constructs. A man can wear a woman's dress, but a male cannot be pregnant and give birth.
        lliamander 6y ago
        > Men/Women are social constructs. What does it mean for these categories to be social constructs? What criteria makes one a man or a woman?
        babycake 6y ago
        > What criteria makes one a man or a woman? That's up to the society, hence their definitions as social constructs. For example, when you shop for dresses, do mostly men or women come up? Articles of clothing by themselves are not tied to the biology of a person's sex... meaning a vagina/penis is not required to wear a dress. But most of society (as it is now) has deemed that woman are associated with dresses, while men are associated with suits. That image is now changing, although slowly, with trans and other non-binary genders. An easy way to see this is to ask yourself if you think it's acceptable for men to wear dresses? If so, ask why we don't see more of that in the workplace.
        lliamander 6y ago
        > That's up to the society, hence their definitions as social constructs. So, if someone identifies as as man, but society disagrees, is that person a man? What reasons would a society have to change their criteria to include this person in the category of "man"?
        babycake 6y ago
        There are lots of reasons that a society would change. Some factors would include newer generations introducing ideas that the older generation didn't take heed to. Marriage used to be strictly between a man and a woman. Now society says it can include homosexuals. Women used to stay at home to take care of the house, while men worked at jobs to provide for the entire family. Now society says both roles can be taken up by both men and women. Black people used to sit at the back of the bus, and now anyone can sit anywhere. I mean, society constantly changes. We see it in history, we even see it today within our own lives. Places like Saudi Arabia are currently having their own version of woman's suffrage even as we speak. So given this, in your example person, I would wager that society would deem that person not a man, since the hypothetical society has already decided it that way. But that's not to say that person will give up on not being recognized as a man. Our human history has shown us that we don't just stop at an idea, some of us go all the way to pave new rights for entire future generations to come. Whether or not society adopts the new definitions, well, that's up to the people living in it.
    - lliamander 6y ago
      I see people say many things, not all of them make sense or appear consistent to me, which is why I am asking questions. I appreciate the answer. Are there situations where those of the female sex as a group have a legitimate special interest that does not include trans women?
      - joshuamorton 6y ago
        > Are there situations where those of the female sex as a group Obviously: medical stuff. The needs of trans women and cis women are not aligned when issues of sexual health come up. Trans women don't have uteruses, for example, and healthcare for trans women differs greatly from assigned-female-at-birth people. Here, the interests of trans women, AFAB women, trans men and AMAB men are all somewhat unique. Note further that in this situation men (specifically trans-men) and AFAB women can have significant overlaps in needs. Do you mean more in social spaces, where women as a group are interacting as women and not as females? Because as a society we don't often differentiate between female and women's spaces, and in general we seem to apply the label "female" to many things that are really "women's". Offhand, I can't think of many social spaces where women interact as females, and not just as women. Perhaps spaces devoted to motherhood? As for the women's spaces, those being trans exclusionary is, imo questionable in most cases. Although I did see a trans person I know recently point out that they are able to relate with trans women's experiences often more deeply than with cis women's, so the reverse would also likely be true. As for your other question: > I should add, I see people use the phrase "assigned male/female". Which seems odd to me if sex is a biological construct rather than a social construct. It seems the correct phrase would be "assigned man/woman". Is there something I am missing? I agree the terminology here is weird. But implicit in your framing is that someone is assigned a gender based on their sex. One is not assigned "man/woman" at all. Or, insofar as a trans woman is AMAB, they were also assigned woman at birth (but this assignment is mental), that's why they chose to transition their appearance, to better align with their gender. I'm not an expert, but my guess is that the "assigned" framing is a way to help distance the person from an aspect of themselves that can cause dysphoria. If you see yourself as a woman, you might strongly prefer to be biologically female, but you can't be. Framing this as something you were assigned helps to address that.
    - lliamander 6y ago
      I should add, I see people use the phrase "assigned male/female". Which seems odd to me if sex is a biological construct rather than a social construct. It seems the correct phrase would be "assigned man/woman". Is there something I am missing?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- anonms-coward 6y ago
  Yup, that's the only thing any company or person can say without causing a Twitter storm against them. By saying this they can simply avoid clarifying what they mean by this. I think all these public personalities will have a much harder time if they were asked a clearer question: Should any man who self ids as a woman have access to women's private spaces. I don't see a large company ever answering that in yes/no.
- Animats 6y ago
  Maybe that's just a fad that will blow over. Nobody took that idea seriously until a few years ago. On Google Trends, peak "transgender" was in 2018. Transgenders are around 0.6% of the US population. Niche issue.

> Nobody's saying that men who falsely claim to be women should have access to women's spaces. What are they saying?

Pulcinella 6y ago

That trans women are women.

lliamander 6y ago
In what sense? That is, in terms of their gender, or their sex, or both?
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  "Women" is not a sex. You don't see people saying "trans women are biologically female" for a reason.
  - newen 6y ago
    Things are getting just a little bit ridiculous in America when you have people saying "women" is not a sex.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      Not at all. It's a gender. Can you elaborate on what makes that statement so ridiculous on it's face?
      - cfmcdonald 6y ago
        If you check a dictionary, the top definition for "woman" is typically something like "an adult female person" or "an adult female human." So the claim that woman/man is a totally different thing from male/female is pretty novel.
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        Indeed, I bring this up elsewhere, but there's been a lot of overlap of the medical and the social throughout history. That's changed recently. I don't see how that makes things "ridiculous" to quote GP.
        lliamander 6y ago
        How widespread are those changes though? The Wikipedia article on Sex Differences in Humans uses the terms man/woman and male/female interchangeably[1]. What little I've seen of the scientific literature follows this convention as well. It's my experience that, across a broad swath of American society, that many people follow the old convention as well. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans
        joshuamorton 6y ago
        To be honest, I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make here. Yes, in most contexts in present western society, male/female and man/woman are interchangeable (and certain groups have a vested interest in maintaining this state). There are however contexts in which they are not. Trans people (and allies) need to be cognizant of these things to be able to discuss the differences. If your argument is that to an observer, "trans women are women" could be interpreted as "trans women are biologically female", then sure one could interpret it that way. But in the context of discussions about trans people, women and female mean different things, which is why "trans women are women" is the phrase, and not "trans women are biologically female". That dictionaries haven't caught up is kind of disappointing, but if you look at the wiki page, it mentions trans women at the end, which seems kind of strange to do in the context of biological female-ness. I'll also note that because it's so common to conflate the two, that I try to explicitly add the "biologically" modifier when discussing bio sex. in contexts not talking about trans groups, I'm sure I've conflated the terms without noticing.
        lliamander 6y ago
    - babycake 6y ago
      male/female are biological descriptions. Men/Women are social constructs. A man can wear a woman's dress, but a male cannot be pregnant and give birth.
      - lliamander 6y ago
        > Men/Women are social constructs. What does it mean for these categories to be social constructs? What criteria makes one a man or a woman?
        babycake 6y ago
        > What criteria makes one a man or a woman? That's up to the society, hence their definitions as social constructs. For example, when you shop for dresses, do mostly men or women come up? Articles of clothing by themselves are not tied to the biology of a person's sex... meaning a vagina/penis is not required to wear a dress. But most of society (as it is now) has deemed that woman are associated with dresses, while men are associated with suits. That image is now changing, although slowly, with trans and other non-binary genders. An easy way to see this is to ask yourself if you think it's acceptable for men to wear dresses? If so, ask why we don't see more of that in the workplace.
        lliamander 6y ago
        > That's up to the society, hence their definitions as social constructs. So, if someone identifies as as man, but society disagrees, is that person a man? What reasons would a society have to change their criteria to include this person in the category of "man"?
        babycake 6y ago
        There are lots of reasons that a society would change. Some factors would include newer generations introducing ideas that the older generation didn't take heed to. Marriage used to be strictly between a man and a woman. Now society says it can include homosexuals. Women used to stay at home to take care of the house, while men worked at jobs to provide for the entire family. Now society says both roles can be taken up by both men and women. Black people used to sit at the back of the bus, and now anyone can sit anywhere. I mean, society constantly changes. We see it in history, we even see it today within our own lives. Places like Saudi Arabia are currently having their own version of woman's suffrage even as we speak. So given this, in your example person, I would wager that society would deem that person not a man, since the hypothetical society has already decided it that way. But that's not to say that person will give up on not being recognized as a man. Our human history has shown us that we don't just stop at an idea, some of us go all the way to pave new rights for entire future generations to come. Whether or not society adopts the new definitions, well, that's up to the people living in it.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    I see people say many things, not all of them make sense or appear consistent to me, which is why I am asking questions. I appreciate the answer. Are there situations where those of the female sex as a group have a legitimate special interest that does not include trans women?
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      > Are there situations where those of the female sex as a group Obviously: medical stuff. The needs of trans women and cis women are not aligned when issues of sexual health come up. Trans women don't have uteruses, for example, and healthcare for trans women differs greatly from assigned-female-at-birth people. Here, the interests of trans women, AFAB women, trans men and AMAB men are all somewhat unique. Note further that in this situation men (specifically trans-men) and AFAB women can have significant overlaps in needs. Do you mean more in social spaces, where women as a group are interacting as women and not as females? Because as a society we don't often differentiate between female and women's spaces, and in general we seem to apply the label "female" to many things that are really "women's". Offhand, I can't think of many social spaces where women interact as females, and not just as women. Perhaps spaces devoted to motherhood? As for the women's spaces, those being trans exclusionary is, imo questionable in most cases. Although I did see a trans person I know recently point out that they are able to relate with trans women's experiences often more deeply than with cis women's, so the reverse would also likely be true. As for your other question: > I should add, I see people use the phrase "assigned male/female". Which seems odd to me if sex is a biological construct rather than a social construct. It seems the correct phrase would be "assigned man/woman". Is there something I am missing? I agree the terminology here is weird. But implicit in your framing is that someone is assigned a gender based on their sex. One is not assigned "man/woman" at all. Or, insofar as a trans woman is AMAB, they were also assigned woman at birth (but this assignment is mental), that's why they chose to transition their appearance, to better align with their gender. I'm not an expert, but my guess is that the "assigned" framing is a way to help distance the person from an aspect of themselves that can cause dysphoria. If you see yourself as a woman, you might strongly prefer to be biologically female, but you can't be. Framing this as something you were assigned helps to address that.
  - lliamander 6y ago
    I should add, I see people use the phrase "assigned male/female". Which seems odd to me if sex is a biological construct rather than a social construct. It seems the correct phrase would be "assigned man/woman". Is there something I am missing?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
anonms-coward 6y ago
Yup, that's the only thing any company or person can say without causing a Twitter storm against them. By saying this they can simply avoid clarifying what they mean by this. I think all these public personalities will have a much harder time if they were asked a clearer question: Should any man who self ids as a woman have access to women's private spaces. I don't see a large company ever answering that in yes/no.
Animats 6y ago
Maybe that's just a fad that will blow over. Nobody took that idea seriously until a few years ago. On Google Trends, peak "transgender" was in 2018. Transgenders are around 0.6% of the US population. Niche issue.