6 ms·

Columbus’s Ultimate Goal: Jerusalem (2006) [pdf]

25 points by danielam 6y ago

thirteenfingers 6y ago
Ms. Delaney has also written a full-length book, "Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem", which I haven't read all the way through but which appears to be a more thorough treatment of the material covered in this article. (Disclaimer: personally acquainted with the author.)
fauria 6y ago
For some reason, in the English wikipedia article for Christopher Columbus [1] you can read: "Christopher Columbus... was an Italian master navigator who...". On the other hand, the article about the theories of Christopher Columbus' origin [2] says: "The exact ethnic or national origin of Christopher Columbus (1451-1506) has been a source of speculation since the 19th century". Considering this, and the fact that Italy became the nation we know around the 19th century, I wonder why the (semi-protected) article reads like that. I think it should be updated. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher...
- evmar 6y ago
  I don't know about Columbus in particular, but most famous people like him have people from different countries continuously edit warring over which country gets to "claim" him. I'll check the talk page ... yep, half the talk is arguing about this. (As an American, I find this phenomenon extremely silly and very foreign feeling. I don't really care whether "my" ancestors get credit for something or not, especially given that national boundaries and people move around all the time. I find it vaguely nationalistic in the ugly sense. Maybe it's because there were plenty of great Americans who were clearly not born here in the first place?)
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    > (As an American, I find this phenomenon extremely silly and very foreign feeling. I don't really care whether "my" ancestors get credit for something or not, especially given that national boundaries and people move around all the time. I find it vaguely nationalistic in the ugly sense. Maybe it's because there were plenty of great Americans who were clearly not born here in the first place?) Most of the countries in the America are largely populated by immigrants and their descendants, and have a relatively shallow history of culture [1], which gives them few opportunities to engage in these arguments, and little reason to care about the result. [1] I should note here that the fact that the modern countries do not derive authority from any pre-existing indigenous polities gives them little influence in the development of culture.
  - werpon 6y ago
    > As an American, I find this phenomenon extremely silly and very foreign feeling. As the great British statesman George Washington once said: “Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.”
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  Italians identified as Italians way before Italy was a state, Italia as a region was defined in the roman empire, and the populace recognize unity even under the different domination and independent kingdoms that rose and fall until unification. There's also no doubt about Columbus origin, there's a bunch of rumors and propaganda amplified by people repeating them as if these are well researched theories - notice instead how a Norwegian is claiming it's Norwegian, a Portuguese it's claiming it's Portuguese, a Polish is claiming it's Polish.. and quite many of these writing were wrote during the rise of ultranationalisms across Europe. Not hard to figure out the pattern there. Shame having to defend his Italianità after the tragedy of his actions, but still.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    It's funny to observe how in these nationalistic debates about great figures in history, it's always Germans arguing that the person in German, Poles arguing that the person is Polish, Slovenians arguing that the person in Slovenian, etc. If these were honest debates, there might be a Pole arguing that the person is German, a German arguing that they're Slovenian, and a Slovenian arguing that they're Polish. The most bitter debate I've ever seen of this nature is about the nationality of Copernicus. He lived in Royal Prussia, an autonomous dependency of the Kingdom of Poland. His native language was German, but he wrote in Latin, and he's known by the Latinized form of his name. He studied in Bologna. So was he Prussian, Polish, German or could Italy perhaps claim him? Or does none of this matter, because he was born long before the age of nationalism?
    - twic 6y ago
      Indian! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U
    - LoSboccacc 6y ago
      ah! I've fallen for Copernicus as well. it's funny it's not like I ever had a debate or read about his nationality, until the topic came up with some Pole while talking about Chopin he also went and you know who else? Marie Curie and Copernicus and then it struck me we always call him "Nicola Copernico" in the school curricula (at least we used to in the nineties) and I just assumed it was Italian by name association alone, without even inquiring about his origins until much later in life, as the topic dropped. I think a lot of these kind of factoid form into people mind for "absence of correction" more than active research on the topic.
- yummypaint 6y ago
  There is a subsection of the amusing "lamest edit wars" page dedicated to this phenomenon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars/Ethnic_feuds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars/E...
empath75 6y ago
It's interesting that the author seems to think that focusing on the religiousness of Columbus somehow mitigates the horror of what he did, as if any religious person of the time would have behaved the same way, but there were other religious people with him who objected strenuously to his treatment of native americans and slavery.
- requin246 6y ago
  Columbus’ poor treatment of the natives is a popular myth. He actually rigorously promoted their well-being (to the disappointment of his men), to the point where his soldiers chained him and sent him back to Spain on a boat to be rid of him. This author (a practicing anthropologist) has a book going into more detail about his treatment of the natives.
  - empath75 6y ago
    > As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic, according to documents discovered by Spanish historians in 2005. In response to native unrest and revolt, Columbus ordered a brutal crackdown in which many natives were killed; in an attempt to deter further rebellion, Columbus ordered their dismembered bodies to be paraded through the streets. https://www.history.com/news/columbus-day-controversy https://www.history.com/news/columbus-day-controversy
vondur 6y ago
Well, it's not surprising giving the time period and the Chivalric ideas that went with it. (Late Medieval period) The Reconquista had just finished up in Spain, and the Ottomans were now bursting on the scene in the Eastern Mediterranean. Columbus was a bit of a Zealot and believed that god spoke to him personally.
082349872349872 6y ago
Very tangential: wondering what Montaigne had to say about the New World led me to his OF CANNIBALS (somewhat in the genre of Tacitus' Germania), in which I learned that Seneca had foreshadowed Monty Python's Black Knight. "sed etiam si cecidit de genu pugnat": And when he falls he fights on his knees. (On Providence II.VI) compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRwCPUEND1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRwCPUEND1U

25 points by danielam 6y ago

Ms. Delaney has also written a full-length book, "Columbus and the Quest for Jerusalem", which I haven't read all the way through but which appears to be a more thorough treatment of the material covered in this article. (Disclaimer: personally acquainted with the author.)

fauria 6y ago

For some reason, in the English wikipedia article for Christopher Columbus [1] you can read: "Christopher Columbus... was an Italian master navigator who...". On the other hand, the article about the theories of Christopher Columbus' origin [2] says: "The exact ethnic or national origin of Christopher Columbus (1451-1506) has been a source of speculation since the 19th century". Considering this, and the fact that Italy became the nation we know around the 19th century, I wonder why the (semi-protected) article reads like that. I think it should be updated. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher_Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_theories_of_Christopher...

evmar 6y ago
I don't know about Columbus in particular, but most famous people like him have people from different countries continuously edit warring over which country gets to "claim" him. I'll check the talk page ... yep, half the talk is arguing about this. (As an American, I find this phenomenon extremely silly and very foreign feeling. I don't really care whether "my" ancestors get credit for something or not, especially given that national boundaries and people move around all the time. I find it vaguely nationalistic in the ugly sense. Maybe it's because there were plenty of great Americans who were clearly not born here in the first place?)
- jcranmer 6y ago
  > (As an American, I find this phenomenon extremely silly and very foreign feeling. I don't really care whether "my" ancestors get credit for something or not, especially given that national boundaries and people move around all the time. I find it vaguely nationalistic in the ugly sense. Maybe it's because there were plenty of great Americans who were clearly not born here in the first place?) Most of the countries in the America are largely populated by immigrants and their descendants, and have a relatively shallow history of culture [1], which gives them few opportunities to engage in these arguments, and little reason to care about the result. [1] I should note here that the fact that the modern countries do not derive authority from any pre-existing indigenous polities gives them little influence in the development of culture.
- werpon 6y ago
  > As an American, I find this phenomenon extremely silly and very foreign feeling. As the great British statesman George Washington once said: “Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.”
LoSboccacc 6y ago
Italians identified as Italians way before Italy was a state, Italia as a region was defined in the roman empire, and the populace recognize unity even under the different domination and independent kingdoms that rose and fall until unification. There's also no doubt about Columbus origin, there's a bunch of rumors and propaganda amplified by people repeating them as if these are well researched theories - notice instead how a Norwegian is claiming it's Norwegian, a Portuguese it's claiming it's Portuguese, a Polish is claiming it's Polish.. and quite many of these writing were wrote during the rise of ultranationalisms across Europe. Not hard to figure out the pattern there. Shame having to defend his Italianità after the tragedy of his actions, but still.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  It's funny to observe how in these nationalistic debates about great figures in history, it's always Germans arguing that the person in German, Poles arguing that the person is Polish, Slovenians arguing that the person in Slovenian, etc. If these were honest debates, there might be a Pole arguing that the person is German, a German arguing that they're Slovenian, and a Slovenian arguing that they're Polish. The most bitter debate I've ever seen of this nature is about the nationality of Copernicus. He lived in Royal Prussia, an autonomous dependency of the Kingdom of Poland. His native language was German, but he wrote in Latin, and he's known by the Latinized form of his name. He studied in Bologna. So was he Prussian, Polish, German or could Italy perhaps claim him? Or does none of this matter, because he was born long before the age of nationalism?
  - twic 6y ago
    Indian! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjWd9a8Ck8U
  - LoSboccacc 6y ago
    ah! I've fallen for Copernicus as well. it's funny it's not like I ever had a debate or read about his nationality, until the topic came up with some Pole while talking about Chopin he also went and you know who else? Marie Curie and Copernicus and then it struck me we always call him "Nicola Copernico" in the school curricula (at least we used to in the nineties) and I just assumed it was Italian by name association alone, without even inquiring about his origins until much later in life, as the topic dropped. I think a lot of these kind of factoid form into people mind for "absence of correction" more than active research on the topic.
yummypaint 6y ago
There is a subsection of the amusing "lamest edit wars" page dedicated to this phenomenon https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars/Ethnic_feuds https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Lamest_edit_wars/E...

empath75 6y ago

It's interesting that the author seems to think that focusing on the religiousness of Columbus somehow mitigates the horror of what he did, as if any religious person of the time would have behaved the same way, but there were other religious people with him who objected strenuously to his treatment of native americans and slavery.

requin246 6y ago
Columbus’ poor treatment of the natives is a popular myth. He actually rigorously promoted their well-being (to the disappointment of his men), to the point where his soldiers chained him and sent him back to Spain on a boat to be rid of him. This author (a practicing anthropologist) has a book going into more detail about his treatment of the natives.
- empath75 6y ago
  > As governor and viceroy of the Indies, Columbus imposed iron discipline on what is now the Caribbean country of Dominican Republic, according to documents discovered by Spanish historians in 2005. In response to native unrest and revolt, Columbus ordered a brutal crackdown in which many natives were killed; in an attempt to deter further rebellion, Columbus ordered their dismembered bodies to be paraded through the streets. https://www.history.com/news/columbus-day-controversy https://www.history.com/news/columbus-day-controversy

vondur 6y ago

Well, it's not surprising giving the time period and the Chivalric ideas that went with it. (Late Medieval period) The Reconquista had just finished up in Spain, and the Ottomans were now bursting on the scene in the Eastern Mediterranean. Columbus was a bit of a Zealot and believed that god spoke to him personally.

082349872349872 6y ago

Very tangential: wondering what Montaigne had to say about the New World led me to his OF CANNIBALS (somewhat in the genre of Tacitus' Germania), in which I learned that Seneca had foreshadowed Monty Python's Black Knight. "sed etiam si cecidit de genu pugnat": And when he falls he fights on his knees. (On Providence II.VI) compare https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRwCPUEND1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRwCPUEND1U