5 ms·

Apple Didn't Invent the App Store

21 points by peter123 16y ago

Anechoic 16y ago
> And like the term "Windows", "App Store" is a generic computing term that was in use prior to Apple's product. Is there an example of the usage of the term "App Store" before Apple popularized it? The date search via Google hasn't turned up anything. edit: I did find this blog post from 2006: http://nerddawg.blogspot.com/2006/08/debugging-windows-presentation_16.html http://nerddawg.blogspot.com/2006/08/debugging-windows-prese...
- ryanhuff 16y ago
  Is that a reference to a store, as in a place that sells things, or a store as in storage? I am not familiar with the topic discussed on the page, but to me, the term "app store" is referring to app caching/storage mechanism.
  - Anechoic 16y ago
    I'm not sure, I suspect it refers to storage, but that was the only example of the term 'app store' that I could find prior to Apple's app store announcement.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - beej71 16y ago
      Usenet post from February 2000 offhandedly refers to Electronics Boutique as "basically a PC app store". Arguably, this is meant as ((PC app) store). Not that it's particularly surprising someone would use the term; most etymology references I can find for "app" put it about 20 years old, in line with the term "killer app". ("Killer app" seems to make an appearance on Usenet in 1989.) But Apple has the trademark, and they're going to defend it regardless of, well, anything.
    - Anechoic 16y ago
      beej71 your comment is dead, but I presume this is the usenet post you were referring to: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.sony/browse_thread/thread/c982f7ba9bfbab72/94bc2f0e6160b8cd?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22basically+a+PC+app+store%22 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.sony/browse_t...
- freerobby 16y ago
  The OP does realize that "Windows" is recognized as a valid trademark, yes?
- stretchwithme 16y ago
  I'm not sure the mere occurrence of the same phrase would invalidate someone's attempt to trademark it. I trademarked a two word phrase that has occurred before on the web, but it had no special meaning in the industry. In other words, no company or process or device came to mind when people in the industry heard the phrase. Nobody had made an investment in it. As part of the proof that the phrase wasn't special, I actually provided search urls for the phrase and explained how the usage in the top results was generic.
Pewpewarrows 16y ago
While not the same thing, show me one person who's touched Linux that didn't immediately scream "Repositories!" when they first heard about the iOS App Store... It's a Storefront for Applications. There's only so many variations of the name you can come up with before they start stepping on each others' toes.
- wtallis 16y ago
  The App Store bears far more resemblance to Steam than to Linux distro repositories, which are primarily about resolving dependencies and being able to upgrade things without breaking dependencies. iOS and OS X Apps don't even have external dependencies other than OS-provided libraries, and most Linux package management systems don't have a standard GUI, let alone one at all like iTunes or the Mac App Store.
  - nickbp 16y ago
    I disagree with your claim of their primary use. They're for installing software; the convenient upgrades and dependency management are merely a side effect of handling that task correctly. Also, from TFA, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNR_(software) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNR_(software)
cmsj 16y ago
In which a minor freetard business celebrity fails to distinguish trademarks from patents.
- dpcan 16y ago
  I thought the same thing - but he does seem to have a pretty good argument backing up his terminology: http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=340#comment-171627566 http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=340#co... If the link doesn't work, it's down a ways in the comments.
  - cmsj 16y ago
    The link didn't seem to work - did you mean the one where he talks about the trademark being invalid? It's an interesting suggestion, and if true then Google/Microsoft should have no problems in appealing the trademark and having it revoked :) Until then, the trademark is granted and apple are required to defend it if they wish to maintain it. Never let such simple facts get in the way of a good bit of grandstanding though ;)
- patrickaljord 16y ago
  He's anything but a "freetard", he built cnr in order to be able to easily ship proprietary and drm apps. Far from a freetard (whatever that means). Also I'm saddened to see people here upvoting a comment using a derogatory term (freetard) against a part of our community (free and open source software enthusiasts in that case), it's against the HN guidelines.
  - cmsj 16y ago
    I'll consider my tone more in future, but lest anyone mistake me - I am part of the FOSS world, so I am a freetard too and use the term as endearing dark humour :)
- foob 16y ago
  I think you're being overly harsh. He quotes Apple's legal papers in which they clearly state that the concept of an app store is unprecedented and then he exposes that as inaccurate. You might think of him as a "minor freetard business celebrity" but he took the brilliance of Linux software repositories, made them easier to use and more accessible, and integrated in the ability to pay for software long before Apple did the exact same thing. That makes him extremely qualified to offer some insight on the topic regardless of how big of a celebrity he is. It also explains why he focuses on countering Apple's claim that they invented the concept despite it being less relevant to the trademark dispute. He was also involved with the Microsoft v. Lindows case in which Microsoft claimed to own the trademark on all words that rhyme with Windows. Remember that one? Where Microsoft couldn't win so they ended up paying $20 million to Lindows for them to change their name to Linspire? He's had direct experience with a frivolous trademark suit from a major software company in the past. Again, that makes him highly qualified to share an opinion on the current situation, which he does. He directly addressed the fact that that app store had been in common usage before Apple started using it. It would've been nice if he could have given more concrete examples but he did still address it. In conclusion, calling him a freetard is childish and contributes nothing to the discussion of the article. Saying that he fails to distinguish trademarks from patents is flat out wrong and gives people skimming the comments a totally inaccurate impression of the article and its relevance.
muhfuhkuh 16y ago
So, is it "app" or "store" that Apple objects to? Or is it simply the combination of those terms and, in all actuality, Amazon could simply call it the "Android App Mart/Market/Superstore/Supermarket" and Apple would just go away?
- allwein 16y ago
  It's the combination "App Store" that they object to. So yes, Amazon App Market would be fine, as is the "Windows Phone App Marketplace".
mukyu 16y ago
> Apple says, "...nothing like the App Store has ever been attempted before." What Apple actually says is """As a columnist for The New York Times remarked soon after the launch of the service, "[nlothing like the App Store has ever been attempted before."""" Yes, Apple is trying to push that idea, but it is not them that said it (in that instance). Apple even notes that similar mobile phone download marketplaces existed before their version of one (though they do not mention the Wii store or Xbox live marketplace which also predate it).
- sroussey 16y ago
  Yes, I noticed Apple carefully quoted someone else as saying they invented an app store. There is also the context of mobile here, where there is less prior art (because of the mobile telcoms hold on such things). If Apple attempted to be super broad here, then I might turn and sue them for 30% of all app store (and Mac store!) purchases, since I built and pitched Apple the concept in the mid and late 1990s. Even met Gil Amelio. Right before the purchase of NeXT. Lawyers can always add my name to any discovery requests from Apple. :)
coob 16y ago
List of things Apple didn't 'invent': * WIMP GUI * All-in-one PCs * Laser Printers * USB * Hard drive audio players * Online media/software marketplaces List of things Apple made wildly popular with the general populace: * WIMP GUI * All-in-one PCs * Laser Printers * USB * Hard drive audio players * Online media/software marketplaces
pedalpete 16y ago
I thought there was an Palm download store back in the late 90's, for the Palm V and such, but I can't seem to find anything about it. Am I completely mistaken?? Couldn't you download apps for the old Palms?
- Lazlo_Nibble 16y ago
  Yes you could. There may have been a centralized "store" at some point, but I don't remember it. Palm OS let you install arbitrary executables, so you didn't need one.
freerobby 16y ago
Broadness in itself is not a reason to deny a trademark. "Christmas Tree Shops" is hardly distinctive. "McDonalds" is a last name. These trademarks are recognized because brands were successfully and identifiably built around them. I think the same can be said about the app store - ask any "normal" who he thinks of when he hears the phrase "App Store." Hint: it's not Google or Amazon.

21 points by peter123 16y ago

> And like the term "Windows", "App Store" is a generic computing term that was in use prior to Apple's product. Is there an example of the usage of the term "App Store" before Apple popularized it? The date search via Google hasn't turned up anything. edit: I did find this blog post from 2006: http://nerddawg.blogspot.com/2006/08/debugging-windows-presentation_16.html http://nerddawg.blogspot.com/2006/08/debugging-windows-prese...

ryanhuff 16y ago
Is that a reference to a store, as in a place that sells things, or a store as in storage? I am not familiar with the topic discussed on the page, but to me, the term "app store" is referring to app caching/storage mechanism.
- Anechoic 16y ago
  I'm not sure, I suspect it refers to storage, but that was the only example of the term 'app store' that I could find prior to Apple's app store announcement.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - beej71 16y ago
    Usenet post from February 2000 offhandedly refers to Electronics Boutique as "basically a PC app store". Arguably, this is meant as ((PC app) store). Not that it's particularly surprising someone would use the term; most etymology references I can find for "app" put it about 20 years old, in line with the term "killer app". ("Killer app" seems to make an appearance on Usenet in 1989.) But Apple has the trademark, and they're going to defend it regardless of, well, anything.
  - Anechoic 16y ago
    beej71 your comment is dead, but I presume this is the usenet post you were referring to: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.sony/browse_thread/thread/c982f7ba9bfbab72/94bc2f0e6160b8cd?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22basically+a+PC+app+store%22 http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.sony/browse_t...
freerobby 16y ago
The OP does realize that "Windows" is recognized as a valid trademark, yes?
stretchwithme 16y ago
I'm not sure the mere occurrence of the same phrase would invalidate someone's attempt to trademark it. I trademarked a two word phrase that has occurred before on the web, but it had no special meaning in the industry. In other words, no company or process or device came to mind when people in the industry heard the phrase. Nobody had made an investment in it. As part of the proof that the phrase wasn't special, I actually provided search urls for the phrase and explained how the usage in the top results was generic.

Pewpewarrows 16y ago

While not the same thing, show me one person who's touched Linux that didn't immediately scream "Repositories!" when they first heard about the iOS App Store... It's a Storefront for Applications. There's only so many variations of the name you can come up with before they start stepping on each others' toes.

wtallis 16y ago
The App Store bears far more resemblance to Steam than to Linux distro repositories, which are primarily about resolving dependencies and being able to upgrade things without breaking dependencies. iOS and OS X Apps don't even have external dependencies other than OS-provided libraries, and most Linux package management systems don't have a standard GUI, let alone one at all like iTunes or the Mac App Store.
- nickbp 16y ago
  I disagree with your claim of their primary use. They're for installing software; the convenient upgrades and dependency management are merely a side effect of handling that task correctly. Also, from TFA, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNR_(software) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNR_(software)

cmsj 16y ago

In which a minor freetard business celebrity fails to distinguish trademarks from patents.

dpcan 16y ago
I thought the same thing - but he does seem to have a pretty good argument backing up his terminology: http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=340#comment-171627566 http://www.michaelrobertson.com/archive.php?minute_id=340#co... If the link doesn't work, it's down a ways in the comments.
- cmsj 16y ago
  The link didn't seem to work - did you mean the one where he talks about the trademark being invalid? It's an interesting suggestion, and if true then Google/Microsoft should have no problems in appealing the trademark and having it revoked :) Until then, the trademark is granted and apple are required to defend it if they wish to maintain it. Never let such simple facts get in the way of a good bit of grandstanding though ;)
patrickaljord 16y ago
He's anything but a "freetard", he built cnr in order to be able to easily ship proprietary and drm apps. Far from a freetard (whatever that means). Also I'm saddened to see people here upvoting a comment using a derogatory term (freetard) against a part of our community (free and open source software enthusiasts in that case), it's against the HN guidelines.
- cmsj 16y ago
  I'll consider my tone more in future, but lest anyone mistake me - I am part of the FOSS world, so I am a freetard too and use the term as endearing dark humour :)
foob 16y ago
I think you're being overly harsh. He quotes Apple's legal papers in which they clearly state that the concept of an app store is unprecedented and then he exposes that as inaccurate. You might think of him as a "minor freetard business celebrity" but he took the brilliance of Linux software repositories, made them easier to use and more accessible, and integrated in the ability to pay for software long before Apple did the exact same thing. That makes him extremely qualified to offer some insight on the topic regardless of how big of a celebrity he is. It also explains why he focuses on countering Apple's claim that they invented the concept despite it being less relevant to the trademark dispute. He was also involved with the Microsoft v. Lindows case in which Microsoft claimed to own the trademark on all words that rhyme with Windows. Remember that one? Where Microsoft couldn't win so they ended up paying $20 million to Lindows for them to change their name to Linspire? He's had direct experience with a frivolous trademark suit from a major software company in the past. Again, that makes him highly qualified to share an opinion on the current situation, which he does. He directly addressed the fact that that app store had been in common usage before Apple started using it. It would've been nice if he could have given more concrete examples but he did still address it. In conclusion, calling him a freetard is childish and contributes nothing to the discussion of the article. Saying that he fails to distinguish trademarks from patents is flat out wrong and gives people skimming the comments a totally inaccurate impression of the article and its relevance.

muhfuhkuh 16y ago

So, is it "app" or "store" that Apple objects to? Or is it simply the combination of those terms and, in all actuality, Amazon could simply call it the "Android App Mart/Market/Superstore/Supermarket" and Apple would just go away?

allwein 16y ago
It's the combination "App Store" that they object to. So yes, Amazon App Market would be fine, as is the "Windows Phone App Marketplace".

mukyu 16y ago

> Apple says, "...nothing like the App Store has ever been attempted before." What Apple actually says is """As a columnist for The New York Times remarked soon after the launch of the service, "[nlothing like the App Store has ever been attempted before."""" Yes, Apple is trying to push that idea, but it is not them that said it (in that instance). Apple even notes that similar mobile phone download marketplaces existed before their version of one (though they do not mention the Wii store or Xbox live marketplace which also predate it).

sroussey 16y ago
Yes, I noticed Apple carefully quoted someone else as saying they invented an app store. There is also the context of mobile here, where there is less prior art (because of the mobile telcoms hold on such things). If Apple attempted to be super broad here, then I might turn and sue them for 30% of all app store (and Mac store!) purchases, since I built and pitched Apple the concept in the mid and late 1990s. Even met Gil Amelio. Right before the purchase of NeXT. Lawyers can always add my name to any discovery requests from Apple. :)

coob 16y ago

List of things Apple didn't 'invent': * WIMP GUI * All-in-one PCs * Laser Printers * USB * Hard drive audio players * Online media/software marketplaces List of things Apple made wildly popular with the general populace: * WIMP GUI * All-in-one PCs * Laser Printers * USB * Hard drive audio players * Online media/software marketplaces

pedalpete 16y ago

I thought there was an Palm download store back in the late 90's, for the Palm V and such, but I can't seem to find anything about it. Am I completely mistaken?? Couldn't you download apps for the old Palms?

Lazlo_Nibble 16y ago
Yes you could. There may have been a centralized "store" at some point, but I don't remember it. Palm OS let you install arbitrary executables, so you didn't need one.

freerobby 16y ago

Broadness in itself is not a reason to deny a trademark. "Christmas Tree Shops" is hardly distinctive. "McDonalds" is a last name. These trademarks are recognized because brands were successfully and identifiably built around them. I think the same can be said about the app store - ask any "normal" who he thinks of when he hears the phrase "App Store." Hint: it's not Google or Amazon.