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Note that it is illegal in the US to use an alternate currency. The second this becomes popular, the feds will raid it and shut it down. See Liberty Dollar, e-

by il 16y ago

Note that it is illegal in the US to use an alternate currency. The second this becomes popular, the feds will raid it and shut it down. See Liberty Dollar, e-gold, etc. Casino chips are specifically exempted from this rule, but only inside a casino.

mrsteveman1 16y ago
Raid what? There is no central authority with bitcoins that can be shut down. They could go after exchanges I suppose, but exchanges aren't really necessary for there to be a functional economy built around bitcoins.
- il 16y ago
  There's always something to raid. Someone is hosting bitcoin.org, developing the client, etc. The government hates competition.
  - getsat 16y ago
    This has come up many times on the bitcoin forums/IRC. There's a few hardcoded nodes that the client will initially connect to, but you can also grab a third party list. The client is open source. The USA fortunately does not have jurisdiction everywhere, though they would like to think they do. By the time it pops up on their radar, it will be too late anyways.
  - mrb 16y ago
    Shutting down the bitcoin.org domain/website would be as effective as the attempts to block distribution of the DeCSS software and keys to combat DVD piracy in the late 1990s. It would be unlikely to hamper development of the Bitcoin network.
cabalamat 16y ago
I was about to post the same thing. However, the USA is not the only jurisdiction in the world -- are there others that would allow something like this?
gavinandresen 16y ago
Liberty Dollar was busted for counterfeiting, because their coins looked too much like legal tender. e-gold was busted for violating Know Your Customer money laundering regulations. Alternative currencies can be legal-- see, for example, Disney Bucks (paper currency issued by Disney) or Ithaca Hours (oldest local currency in the US, going since 1991).
- mrsteveman1 16y ago
  Interesting point, I wonder who in the bitcoin ecosystem would be subject to KYC regs, maybe exchanges?
sbierwagen 16y ago
Note that it is illegal in the US to use an alternate currency. Your position appears to be unsupported by legislation. 31 U.S.C. 5103: (from http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/... ) United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. As I wrote three months ago, ( http://bbot.org/blog/archives/2010/12/11/encrypting_a_better_tomorrow/ http://bbot.org/blog/archives/2010/12/11/encrypting_a_better... ) the Americans may make it hard on Bitcoin to operate for a variety of other reasons, (for one, it's inherently hard to track the movement of money in the Bitcoin network, making it great for laundering money) but Bitcoin does not appear to be prima facie illegal, on the basis of being an alternative currency. You have to pay taxes in USD, but simply doing business in another currency is not illegal. As for "raiding and shutting it down"; difficult, but not entirely impossible. There's only one primary developer, and the network is coordinated through a single irc channel. (#bitcoin @ irc.lfnet.org) You could order him to shut down bitcoin.org, and close the irc channel; but Bitcoin is open source, and a more censorship-resistant client could be hacked together.
- mrsteveman1 16y ago
  If the client were to require tor, or even integrate tor, shutting it down becomes exponentially more difficult.
sgk284 16y ago
Really? There are plenty of southern towns that have their own currency in addition to the USD. I suspect the situation is more complex than you imply.
orijing 16y ago
What if all software and hardware are offshore (i.e. in Switzerland or something)?
mrb 16y ago
Bitcoin's existence is insuppressible. It is a peer-to-peer network with no central authority or server that can be shut down. The worst a government can do is declare it illegal.
- RobertKohr 16y ago
  Thus giving it legitimacy.

by il 16y ago

mrsteveman1 16y ago

Raid what? There is no central authority with bitcoins that can be shut down. They could go after exchanges I suppose, but exchanges aren't really necessary for there to be a functional economy built around bitcoins.

il 16y ago
There's always something to raid. Someone is hosting bitcoin.org, developing the client, etc. The government hates competition.
- getsat 16y ago
  This has come up many times on the bitcoin forums/IRC. There's a few hardcoded nodes that the client will initially connect to, but you can also grab a third party list. The client is open source. The USA fortunately does not have jurisdiction everywhere, though they would like to think they do. By the time it pops up on their radar, it will be too late anyways.
- mrb 16y ago
  Shutting down the bitcoin.org domain/website would be as effective as the attempts to block distribution of the DeCSS software and keys to combat DVD piracy in the late 1990s. It would be unlikely to hamper development of the Bitcoin network.

cabalamat 16y ago

I was about to post the same thing. However, the USA is not the only jurisdiction in the world -- are there others that would allow something like this?

gavinandresen 16y ago

Liberty Dollar was busted for counterfeiting, because their coins looked too much like legal tender. e-gold was busted for violating Know Your Customer money laundering regulations. Alternative currencies can be legal-- see, for example, Disney Bucks (paper currency issued by Disney) or Ithaca Hours (oldest local currency in the US, going since 1991).

mrsteveman1 16y ago
Interesting point, I wonder who in the bitcoin ecosystem would be subject to KYC regs, maybe exchanges?

sbierwagen 16y ago

Note that it is illegal in the US to use an alternate currency. Your position appears to be unsupported by legislation. 31 U.S.C. 5103: (from http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/... ) United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. As I wrote three months ago, ( http://bbot.org/blog/archives/2010/12/11/encrypting_a_better_tomorrow/ http://bbot.org/blog/archives/2010/12/11/encrypting_a_better... ) the Americans may make it hard on Bitcoin to operate for a variety of other reasons, (for one, it's inherently hard to track the movement of money in the Bitcoin network, making it great for laundering money) but Bitcoin does not appear to be prima facie illegal, on the basis of being an alternative currency. You have to pay taxes in USD, but simply doing business in another currency is not illegal. As for "raiding and shutting it down"; difficult, but not entirely impossible. There's only one primary developer, and the network is coordinated through a single irc channel. (#bitcoin @ irc.lfnet.org) You could order him to shut down bitcoin.org, and close the irc channel; but Bitcoin is open source, and a more censorship-resistant client could be hacked together.

mrsteveman1 16y ago
If the client were to require tor, or even integrate tor, shutting it down becomes exponentially more difficult.

sgk284 16y ago

Really? There are plenty of southern towns that have their own currency in addition to the USD. I suspect the situation is more complex than you imply.

orijing 16y ago

What if all software and hardware are offshore (i.e. in Switzerland or something)?

mrb 16y ago

Bitcoin's existence is insuppressible. It is a peer-to-peer network with no central authority or server that can be shut down. The worst a government can do is declare it illegal.

RobertKohr 16y ago
Thus giving it legitimacy.