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Has there been any precedence of US banning an app/website without some clear violation of law?

by actuator 6y ago

rdlecler1 6y ago
This is a national security issue.
- vkou 6y ago
  To be crude, I don't think someone in China seeing my TikTok videos is a national security issue. This interference with the free market is about politics, not security.
  - JoshTriplett 6y ago
    > I don't think someone in China seeing my TikTok videos Leaving aside mechanisms and policies, this is not about seeing videos, this is about the invasive amount of information TikTok collects from devices it runs on.
    - vkou 6y ago
      I don't think someone in China getting my GPS history, or my browsing history, or my mother's phone number is a national security issue, either.
      - cthalupa 6y ago
        Yours? Probably not. But it isn't about you. We already know that social media can be, and is, used to track details by nation states on all sorts of things, from the movement of individuals of interest, as well as things such as estimating the population of military bases, discovering military operations, etc. A foreign government having access to all of that data for a huge portion of the population is 100% a national security risk.
        vkou 6y ago
        Then ban military people from using it, problem solved. This level of paranoia looks more like the Soviet Union[1] than it does like a free country. [1] Where you couldn't even buy a map, because heaven forbid, foreign spies might use them to compromise... National security. They might learn the distances between the army base, and the hospital, and then who knows what diabolical plot they may hatch?
        elliekelly 6y ago
        If I’m not mistaken the US Military has already banned the use of TikTok.
      - dariusj18 6y ago
        Using a large enough network and bluetooth history someone could track the movements of someone they are interested in.
  - lightgreen 6y ago
    It could be for example if your neighbor works for CIA or at some secret research laboratory. They can learn a lot about them by watching your funny cat videos.
    - vkou 6y ago
      This makes zero sense. What material information will they learn about my neighbour from my phone?
      - LyndsySimon 6y ago
        I'm spitballing, but here goes. A) Your neighbor's laptop is partially compromised, and part of what is obtained is a list of APs with which it has been associated. B) Your phone has TikTok installed, and part of what is obtained is your location and the available APs (while you're using the app, only). C) You use your phone to view TikTok videos in the middle of the night, at home. Because of B+C, the foreign actor now knows where you live (via location services) and the wireless APs nearby. Because of A, they know where your neighbor's laptop has associated. Taken together, they now have a reasonable level of confidence where your neighbor lives even though they have never installed TikTok.
        vkou 6y ago
        If your neighour's machine is pwned, they could just look at the addresses on the bills he receives in his e-mail. And if they want to know where my neighbour lives, they could just consult a... Land deed registry. Or their resume. Or... Run a credit check on them. That last one will also give personal information at a level of fidelity right down to the number of nose hairs that they plucked this morning. But let's cycle back to that. How does knowing my neighbour's address compromise national security? Am I compromising national security by telling you that John Leslie lives in Apt 341 on my floor? Even if he works for the Air Force? Keep in mind - the man has to live somewhere. What relevance of note does where he lives in particular have to a nation state?
      - lightgreen 6y ago
  - apexalpha 6y ago
    >This interference with the free market is about politics, not security. Oh you're reading this too literally. When the US government says 'national security issue' what it means is: they want to. That's it. The list of subjects the US has deemed "National security" over the years to get what it wants is both long and broad.
- alexmingoia 6y ago
  No, it’s not.
  - Craighead 6y ago
    Yes, it is.
dannyr 6y ago
Apple banned Facebook's Onavo VPN app while it wasn't banned on the Android Play Store.
tallanvor 6y ago
Not exactly, and nothing that I can think of that would really fit in this circumstance. Had TikTok originated in the US and been bought by a foreign company, The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States could have ordered the foreign company to divest itself of that asset. An example was Grindr being purchased by Kunlun Tech, and CFIUS deciding that this wasn't allowable. --The idea being that the type of data Grindr has could pose national security issues (due to government employees or elected officials being blackmailed, not that Grindr has ever been known for any form of security). With TikTok, however, it seems to be more about posturing. I'm not sure what legal mechanism they could really use to force the app to be blocked.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
Informally, the US government pressured payment processors to cut off WikiLeaks. All the major players complied. I'm not a lawyer, but that certainly feels like a violation of the 1st Amendment to me.
codezero 6y ago
Sort of. There are a lot of international regulations that prevent things like SaaS companies from servicing Iran and Korea - so they could just introduce some “justifiable” legislation and then ask Apple to enforce it which they probably would.

Has there been any precedence of US banning an app/website without some clear violation of law?

rdlecler1 6y ago

This is a national security issue.

vkou 6y ago
To be crude, I don't think someone in China seeing my TikTok videos is a national security issue. This interference with the free market is about politics, not security.
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  > I don't think someone in China seeing my TikTok videos Leaving aside mechanisms and policies, this is not about seeing videos, this is about the invasive amount of information TikTok collects from devices it runs on.
  - vkou 6y ago
    I don't think someone in China getting my GPS history, or my browsing history, or my mother's phone number is a national security issue, either.
    - cthalupa 6y ago
      Yours? Probably not. But it isn't about you. We already know that social media can be, and is, used to track details by nation states on all sorts of things, from the movement of individuals of interest, as well as things such as estimating the population of military bases, discovering military operations, etc. A foreign government having access to all of that data for a huge portion of the population is 100% a national security risk.
      - vkou 6y ago
        Then ban military people from using it, problem solved. This level of paranoia looks more like the Soviet Union[1] than it does like a free country. [1] Where you couldn't even buy a map, because heaven forbid, foreign spies might use them to compromise... National security. They might learn the distances between the army base, and the hospital, and then who knows what diabolical plot they may hatch?
        elliekelly 6y ago
        If I’m not mistaken the US Military has already banned the use of TikTok.
    - dariusj18 6y ago
      Using a large enough network and bluetooth history someone could track the movements of someone they are interested in.
- lightgreen 6y ago
  It could be for example if your neighbor works for CIA or at some secret research laboratory. They can learn a lot about them by watching your funny cat videos.
  - vkou 6y ago
    This makes zero sense. What material information will they learn about my neighbour from my phone?
    - LyndsySimon 6y ago
      I'm spitballing, but here goes. A) Your neighbor's laptop is partially compromised, and part of what is obtained is a list of APs with which it has been associated. B) Your phone has TikTok installed, and part of what is obtained is your location and the available APs (while you're using the app, only). C) You use your phone to view TikTok videos in the middle of the night, at home. Because of B+C, the foreign actor now knows where you live (via location services) and the wireless APs nearby. Because of A, they know where your neighbor's laptop has associated. Taken together, they now have a reasonable level of confidence where your neighbor lives even though they have never installed TikTok.
      - vkou 6y ago
        If your neighour's machine is pwned, they could just look at the addresses on the bills he receives in his e-mail. And if they want to know where my neighbour lives, they could just consult a... Land deed registry. Or their resume. Or... Run a credit check on them. That last one will also give personal information at a level of fidelity right down to the number of nose hairs that they plucked this morning. But let's cycle back to that. How does knowing my neighbour's address compromise national security? Am I compromising national security by telling you that John Leslie lives in Apt 341 on my floor? Even if he works for the Air Force? Keep in mind - the man has to live somewhere. What relevance of note does where he lives in particular have to a nation state?
    - lightgreen 6y ago
- apexalpha 6y ago
  >This interference with the free market is about politics, not security. Oh you're reading this too literally. When the US government says 'national security issue' what it means is: they want to. That's it. The list of subjects the US has deemed "National security" over the years to get what it wants is both long and broad.
alexmingoia 6y ago
No, it’s not.
- Craighead 6y ago
  Yes, it is.

dannyr 6y ago

Apple banned Facebook's Onavo VPN app while it wasn't banned on the Android Play Store.

tallanvor 6y ago

Not exactly, and nothing that I can think of that would really fit in this circumstance. Had TikTok originated in the US and been bought by a foreign company, The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States could have ordered the foreign company to divest itself of that asset. An example was Grindr being purchased by Kunlun Tech, and CFIUS deciding that this wasn't allowable. --The idea being that the type of data Grindr has could pose national security issues (due to government employees or elected officials being blackmailed, not that Grindr has ever been known for any form of security). With TikTok, however, it seems to be more about posturing. I'm not sure what legal mechanism they could really use to force the app to be blocked.

DiogenesKynikos 6y ago

Informally, the US government pressured payment processors to cut off WikiLeaks. All the major players complied. I'm not a lawyer, but that certainly feels like a violation of the 1st Amendment to me.

codezero 6y ago

Sort of. There are a lot of international regulations that prevent things like SaaS companies from servicing Iran and Korea - so they could just introduce some “justifiable” legislation and then ask Apple to enforce it which they probably would.