8 ms·

I agree. How do we change it?

by enchiridion 6y ago

taneq 6y ago
Fund education sufficiently that "No Child Left Behind" doesn't turn into "No Child Allowed Ahead".
- DuskStar 6y ago
  And why do you assume that this is the sort of problem that can be solved with funding? Maybe we'd be better off with average classes of 60 plus putting students with others matching their skill levels, or some other orthogonal move. If I'm remembering correctly, school performance by state is basically uncorrelated with spending.
  - taneq 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure outcomes are inversely correlated with class size. That's why people pay for individual tuition. Smaller class sizes necessarily cost more per student. It's not a huge leap to conclude that more money per student spent on reducing class sizes will improve outcomes across the board. What happens, though, is that money is spent on small group or individual lessons for the special ed kids while any kid who's capable of doing so is left to fend for themselves.
- barry-cotter 6y ago
  In the US spending per student on K-12 education has tripled since 1970. Achievement has been flat[1]. There’s no shortage of money. Practically unlimited education funding has limited effects on results[2]. It’s structural change that’s needed, like acceleration for all. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/school-funding-system-not-broken-it-just-doesnt-work https://www.cato.org/blog/school-funding-system-not-broken-i... [2] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/americas-most-costly-educational-failure https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/americas-most-c...
  - liquidise 6y ago
    2 other figures to consider in your analysis (since 1970): - Total US inflation rate: ~550% - US Population growth: ~60% This suggests education spending, per child, is roughly 1/3 what it was in the 1970 (or so my late night napkin math says)
    - cpitman 6y ago
      It looks like the referenced figures are already inflation adjusted and per-capita, so it really is 3x as expensive to educate students today then in 1970.
    - ojbyrne 6y ago
      I don’t really have an opinion here, but the referenced article says “adjusted for inflation.”
  - adrianN 6y ago
    But what is that money spent on? Are there more teachers per student? Because intuitively that's what you need to provide more individualized teaching. Here in Germany a lot of money is spent on using more computers in the classroom. Blackboards are replaced with computers, students get tablets. The number of students per teacher on the other hand is unchanged or growing.
    - treis 6y ago
      A lot of that increase went towards Special Ed and administration overhead. It's hard to do a raw student/teacher ratio because today you have special Ed teachers with a handful of students. That didn't really exist 40-50 years ago. Pensions are another huge problem. Those big promises handed out in the 70s-80s are now coming due. There's districts spending double digits percentages of their budget paying retired teachers. So lots of money going in but bills are riding faster. But the general point is still correct. Inner city schools generally have the highest budgets per pupil in their state. Ultimately spending is not very correlated with performance. Of course, in a perfectly allocated system it wouldn't be correlated at all. Money would flow to where it was needed most until every school generated equal outcomes
beaner 6y ago
You can start with supporting charter schools. They're public schools that are allowed to push out of typical restrictions and teach children in new ways. Overall, they're an excellent investment and the data shows that they work. They face many strong and sad political challenges. There's a recent book called Charter Schools and their Enemies that is a good read about the story of them.
- aaronbrethorst 6y ago
  The author of the book you mention is a fan of the current, utterly disastrous Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. That's an instant write-off to me.
  - DuskStar 6y ago
    Maybe it should be a prompt to look at DeVos with a fresh mind, instead? I've heard very little about her actual actions or policies beyond revoking the "Dear Colleague" letter.
    - aaronbrethorst 6y ago
      Nah, pass. Before joining the Trump administration, [DeVos]...had a strong hand in the spread of for-profit charter schools in her home state of Michigan, which saw a dramatic drop in average school performances after her pet policies were enacted. As secretary of education, she's consistently sidelined student civil rights and worked to make debt relief harder than ever. https://www.gq.com/story/betsy-devos-is-the-worst https://www.gq.com/story/betsy-devos-is-the-worst Even Trump overruled her on plans to gut the Special Olympics https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/betsy-devos-trump-republicans-education-secretary https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/betsy-devos-... in response to a question about whether guns belonged in schools, she referred to a school in Wyoming and said, “I would imagine that there is probably a gun in the schools to protect from potential grizzlies.” DeVos was confirmed by the Senate — but only, for the first time in U.S. history, after a vice president had to vote to break a tie. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/10/25/betsy-devoss-truly-awful-week-by-headlines/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/10/25/betsy-de...

I agree. How do we change it?

taneq 6y ago

Fund education sufficiently that "No Child Left Behind" doesn't turn into "No Child Allowed Ahead".

DuskStar 6y ago
And why do you assume that this is the sort of problem that can be solved with funding? Maybe we'd be better off with average classes of 60 plus putting students with others matching their skill levels, or some other orthogonal move. If I'm remembering correctly, school performance by state is basically uncorrelated with spending.
- taneq 6y ago
  I'm pretty sure outcomes are inversely correlated with class size. That's why people pay for individual tuition. Smaller class sizes necessarily cost more per student. It's not a huge leap to conclude that more money per student spent on reducing class sizes will improve outcomes across the board. What happens, though, is that money is spent on small group or individual lessons for the special ed kids while any kid who's capable of doing so is left to fend for themselves.
barry-cotter 6y ago
In the US spending per student on K-12 education has tripled since 1970. Achievement has been flat[1]. There’s no shortage of money. Practically unlimited education funding has limited effects on results[2]. It’s structural change that’s needed, like acceleration for all. [1] https://www.cato.org/blog/school-funding-system-not-broken-it-just-doesnt-work https://www.cato.org/blog/school-funding-system-not-broken-i... [2] https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/americas-most-costly-educational-failure https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/americas-most-c...
- liquidise 6y ago
  2 other figures to consider in your analysis (since 1970): - Total US inflation rate: ~550% - US Population growth: ~60% This suggests education spending, per child, is roughly 1/3 what it was in the 1970 (or so my late night napkin math says)
  - cpitman 6y ago
    It looks like the referenced figures are already inflation adjusted and per-capita, so it really is 3x as expensive to educate students today then in 1970.
  - ojbyrne 6y ago
    I don’t really have an opinion here, but the referenced article says “adjusted for inflation.”
- adrianN 6y ago
  But what is that money spent on? Are there more teachers per student? Because intuitively that's what you need to provide more individualized teaching. Here in Germany a lot of money is spent on using more computers in the classroom. Blackboards are replaced with computers, students get tablets. The number of students per teacher on the other hand is unchanged or growing.
  - treis 6y ago
    A lot of that increase went towards Special Ed and administration overhead. It's hard to do a raw student/teacher ratio because today you have special Ed teachers with a handful of students. That didn't really exist 40-50 years ago. Pensions are another huge problem. Those big promises handed out in the 70s-80s are now coming due. There's districts spending double digits percentages of their budget paying retired teachers. So lots of money going in but bills are riding faster. But the general point is still correct. Inner city schools generally have the highest budgets per pupil in their state. Ultimately spending is not very correlated with performance. Of course, in a perfectly allocated system it wouldn't be correlated at all. Money would flow to where it was needed most until every school generated equal outcomes

beaner 6y ago

You can start with supporting charter schools. They're public schools that are allowed to push out of typical restrictions and teach children in new ways. Overall, they're an excellent investment and the data shows that they work. They face many strong and sad political challenges. There's a recent book called Charter Schools and their Enemies that is a good read about the story of them.

aaronbrethorst 6y ago
The author of the book you mention is a fan of the current, utterly disastrous Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos. That's an instant write-off to me.
- DuskStar 6y ago
  Maybe it should be a prompt to look at DeVos with a fresh mind, instead? I've heard very little about her actual actions or policies beyond revoking the "Dear Colleague" letter.
  - aaronbrethorst 6y ago
    Nah, pass. Before joining the Trump administration, [DeVos]...had a strong hand in the spread of for-profit charter schools in her home state of Michigan, which saw a dramatic drop in average school performances after her pet policies were enacted. As secretary of education, she's consistently sidelined student civil rights and worked to make debt relief harder than ever. https://www.gq.com/story/betsy-devos-is-the-worst https://www.gq.com/story/betsy-devos-is-the-worst Even Trump overruled her on plans to gut the Special Olympics https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/betsy-devos-trump-republicans-education-secretary https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/betsy-devos-... in response to a question about whether guns belonged in schools, she referred to a school in Wyoming and said, “I would imagine that there is probably a gun in the schools to protect from potential grizzlies.” DeVos was confirmed by the Senate — but only, for the first time in U.S. history, after a vice president had to vote to break a tie. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/10/25/betsy-devoss-truly-awful-week-by-headlines/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/10/25/betsy-de...