6 ms·

Ex-Palantir engineer here. What exactly do you think makes the company despicable, apart from them working with some entities you don’t like? They don’t even s

Ex-Palantir engineer here. What exactly do you think makes the company despicable, apart from them working with some entities you don’t like? They don’t even source or store data themselves... they just provide a glorified federated search engine on top of data organizations already have, with fancy visuals and user interface on top.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
Actively enabling mass surveillance. The data is often collected illegally (because there are no consequences for doing so, and it takes the legal system years to catch up with the new data being collected, and then that is either legalized, or the agencies just move on to the next illegal source).
- taywrobel 6y ago
  So just working with entities you don’t like, then? If you think your best hope for addressing government behavior you disagree with is to try to take their tools away, you may as well stay silent completely because it isn’t going to do anything. If your grievances are with the government, take your complaints to the government, no?
  - whymauri 6y ago
    Because Palantir inherently works with third-party organizations, you're able to take every conceivable response and say: "So just working with entities you don’t like, then?" Not really sure if this will be fruitful, honestly.
- iheartnetwork 6y ago
  Do you share the same feelings about Google and Facebook? The level of user tracking undertaken by the aforementioned companies is staggering. Google and Facebook know practically everything about everyone. Both Google and Facebook have federal contracts and have for years.
  - comp6666 6y ago
    exactly. FB and google collect data. Palantir doesn't. Just because a company runs warm and fuzzy super bowl commercials doesn't mean it's more ethical.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
whymauri 6y ago
>What exactly do you think makes the company despicable, apart from them working with some entities you don’t like? I mean, this is certainly enough for me. The Gotham system and who Palantir decides to provide it to borders on dystopian. [0] >The LAPD uses Palantir’s Gotham product for Operation Laser, a program to identify and deter people likely to commit crimes. Information from rap sheets, parole reports, police interviews, and other sources is fed into the system to generate a list of people the department defines as chronic offenders, says Craig Uchida, whose consulting firm, Justice & Security Strategies Inc., designed the Laser system. The list is distributed to patrolmen, with orders to monitor and stop the pre-crime suspects as often as possible, using excuses such as jaywalking or fix-it tickets. At each contact, officers fill out a field interview card with names, addresses, vehicles, physical descriptions, any neighborhood intelligence the person offers, and the officer’s own observations on the subject. This is terrifying. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel...
- taywrobel 6y ago
  It’s just a search engine... and don’t get me wrong, it’s a really robust and expressive search engine, but all it’s doing is data analysis. As scary as that is (and it is absolutely scary), it’s not anything that someone couldn’t do with tableau, or with a whole lot more patience and data manipulation, straight elasticsearch. Palantir makes that easier, sure, but at what point is a tool sufficiently generic so as to not be held accountable for what it’s used for? And if there is no amount of generalizability that absolves the author of software from what its used for, how do you square that against open source software? Should the elasticsearch authors feel guilty if their software is used for something unethical as described here? No money is changing hands is one difference, but for a decision of morality does the payment matter? To be clear, I don’t think there’s one right answer here. Different people will absolutely have different opinions, and that’s not the type of disagreement that’s likely to be swayed on a forum, I just wanted to provide you a different way to think about it, if you’re open to doing so.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Palantir is not being misused. LAPD is using Palantir for its intended purpose. > A major theme of palantír usage is that while the stones show real objects or events, they are an unreliable guide to action, and it is often unclear whether events are past or future: what is not shown may be more important than what is selectively presented. Further, users with sufficient power can choose what to show and what to conceal: in The Lord of the Rings, all uses of palantíri influence the action through deception or misreading of what is shown. Commentators such as Paul Kocher note the hand of providence in their usage, while Joseph Pearce compares Sauron's use of the stones to broadcast wartime propaganda. This doesn't sound like the kind of device that should be sold to law enforcement, or anyone. The entire point of this literary device is to show that the user does not actually understand what they are seeing leading to an incorrect assumption which ends in disaster. It's a cautionary tale, not something to be aspired to.
zucker42 6y ago
> apart from them working with some entities you don’t like In principle, isn't working with entities you don't like sufficient to call a corporation despicable? Like if you think ICE is a despicable organization, and Palantir directly enables ICE, isn't Palantir partially responsible? I also think it's morally problematic to run a company which directly profits from government waste, especially if you're simultaneously lobbying for increased government spending in your industry. I don't know if that description fits Palantir (I don't know much about the company), but some people in this thread seem to think it's not too far off.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

Actively enabling mass surveillance. The data is often collected illegally (because there are no consequences for doing so, and it takes the legal system years to catch up with the new data being collected, and then that is either legalized, or the agencies just move on to the next illegal source).

taywrobel 6y ago
So just working with entities you don’t like, then? If you think your best hope for addressing government behavior you disagree with is to try to take their tools away, you may as well stay silent completely because it isn’t going to do anything. If your grievances are with the government, take your complaints to the government, no?
- whymauri 6y ago
  Because Palantir inherently works with third-party organizations, you're able to take every conceivable response and say: "So just working with entities you don’t like, then?" Not really sure if this will be fruitful, honestly.
iheartnetwork 6y ago
Do you share the same feelings about Google and Facebook? The level of user tracking undertaken by the aforementioned companies is staggering. Google and Facebook know practically everything about everyone. Both Google and Facebook have federal contracts and have for years.
- comp6666 6y ago
  exactly. FB and google collect data. Palantir doesn't. Just because a company runs warm and fuzzy super bowl commercials doesn't mean it's more ethical.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

whymauri 6y ago

>What exactly do you think makes the company despicable, apart from them working with some entities you don’t like? I mean, this is certainly enough for me. The Gotham system and who Palantir decides to provide it to borders on dystopian. [0] >The LAPD uses Palantir’s Gotham product for Operation Laser, a program to identify and deter people likely to commit crimes. Information from rap sheets, parole reports, police interviews, and other sources is fed into the system to generate a list of people the department defines as chronic offenders, says Craig Uchida, whose consulting firm, Justice & Security Strategies Inc., designed the Laser system. The list is distributed to patrolmen, with orders to monitor and stop the pre-crime suspects as often as possible, using excuses such as jaywalking or fix-it tickets. At each contact, officers fill out a field interview card with names, addresses, vehicles, physical descriptions, any neighborhood intelligence the person offers, and the officer’s own observations on the subject. This is terrifying. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2018-palantir-peter-thiel...

taywrobel 6y ago
It’s just a search engine... and don’t get me wrong, it’s a really robust and expressive search engine, but all it’s doing is data analysis. As scary as that is (and it is absolutely scary), it’s not anything that someone couldn’t do with tableau, or with a whole lot more patience and data manipulation, straight elasticsearch. Palantir makes that easier, sure, but at what point is a tool sufficiently generic so as to not be held accountable for what it’s used for? And if there is no amount of generalizability that absolves the author of software from what its used for, how do you square that against open source software? Should the elasticsearch authors feel guilty if their software is used for something unethical as described here? No money is changing hands is one difference, but for a decision of morality does the payment matter? To be clear, I don’t think there’s one right answer here. Different people will absolutely have different opinions, and that’s not the type of disagreement that’s likely to be swayed on a forum, I just wanted to provide you a different way to think about it, if you’re open to doing so.
- mulmen 6y ago
  Palantir is not being misused. LAPD is using Palantir for its intended purpose. > A major theme of palantír usage is that while the stones show real objects or events, they are an unreliable guide to action, and it is often unclear whether events are past or future: what is not shown may be more important than what is selectively presented. Further, users with sufficient power can choose what to show and what to conceal: in The Lord of the Rings, all uses of palantíri influence the action through deception or misreading of what is shown. Commentators such as Paul Kocher note the hand of providence in their usage, while Joseph Pearce compares Sauron's use of the stones to broadcast wartime propaganda. This doesn't sound like the kind of device that should be sold to law enforcement, or anyone. The entire point of this literary device is to show that the user does not actually understand what they are seeing leading to an incorrect assumption which ends in disaster. It's a cautionary tale, not something to be aspired to.

zucker42 6y ago

> apart from them working with some entities you don’t like In principle, isn't working with entities you don't like sufficient to call a corporation despicable? Like if you think ICE is a despicable organization, and Palantir directly enables ICE, isn't Palantir partially responsible? I also think it's morally problematic to run a company which directly profits from government waste, especially if you're simultaneously lobbying for increased government spending in your industry. I don't know if that description fits Palantir (I don't know much about the company), but some people in this thread seem to think it's not too far off.