3 ms·

Yeah, but the phrase "only time" somewhat suggests you use "why" as an excuse to comment rarely. You can nonetheless write such a comment for essentially every

Yeah, but the phrase "only time" somewhat suggests you use "why" as an excuse to comment rarely. You can nonetheless write such a comment for essentially every line. My job description is not "developer" at the moment, so when I was asked to comment my code in order to turn it over to the developers, I looked for some standards. The document I found said, more or less, that you should write comments such that if the code was removed, someone could use the comments to completely reconstruct it. An obvious problem is that you can write about the "why" of anything on a micro or macro level or in between.

Twisol 6y ago
> you should write comments such that if the code was removed, someone could use the comments to completely reconstruct it. I understand that this is just a rule of thumb, but it's so far from anything I could expect to happen in reality that it serves as no justification at all. A codebase is a living entity that grows and changes over time. Without sound justification that butresses both when and when not to comment, advice like this can lead to exactly the brittle comments that disillusion people from commenting as a whole. Comments are just a part of a healthy breakfast. You want the code to be as clear as possible, both in the small (algorithmically) and in the large (architecturally). When the code must necessarily fall short, comments must fill that gap -- and only that gap. (Other forms of documentation serve other needs.) It's like unit tests and integration tests: you want as many unit tests as possible, to give you assurance that the pieces from which you assemble your system are correct. Where unit tests cannot speak, other kinds of tests fill the gaps. But if you try to build your test suite out of integration tests, you'll end up pretty miserable.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  > advice like this can lead to exactly the brittle comments that disillusion people from commenting as a whole As I turn this over in my head, it doesn't sound that convincing because the whole "code should be self-explanatory" ethos seems to me just as susceptible to encouraging bad behavior. Saying something is clear allows you to elevate yourself and blame others if they don't follow. Expecting people to judge their own communication is a definite conflict of interest. Exaggerated commenting requirements as I described are at least a reminder that you should try to err on the other side. Also, for context, the agency I work for is responsible for an accounting system that affects a lot of people and is very much not a "move fast and break things" place. The most exciting thing that happens year after year is reducing the scheduled downtime window(s). Even that obviously must have diminishing returns. The other thing is that in my particular case, the code I wrote is not directly applicable to the accounting system and is written in a different language, so anyone trying to modify it will probably be relatively inexperienced and there is zero chance of anyone being hired to work on it.
  - Twisol 6y ago
    > the whole "code should be self-explanatory" ethos seems to me just as susceptible to encouraging bad behavior. I hope it's clear from what I wrote that I don't think code can be perfectly self-explanatory. I don't think it's all-or-nothing in either direction. I do, however, think that direct clarity is the first line of defense, followed by comments and other documentation artifacts to capture what the code cannot. > Expecting people to judge their own communication is a definite conflict of interest. I don't disagree: while I think it's possible to train your communications so that you meet a minimum bar by default, that training necessarily comes by testing your communication against others. We have peer review processes in part to help account for this: if something isn't clear, that's the first forum of opportunity to address it. The (only) good thing about pithy quotes like "you should be able to rewrite it from the comments" and "code should be self-explanatory" is that they stake out concrete, extreme positions that can be judged on their merits. The space of practice is much wider than the ideologically pure boundary. I'm sure that, for your situation, commenting everything such that it could be rewritten from scratch makes sense. If you needed to pass ownership of a codebase more or less instantaneously, it may make sense as a kind of snapshot of the intent behind the codebase at that point in time. I also work with some critical, ancient software. I wish I had more documentation of all kinds, but mostly because it would help me decipher the codebase itself. I wish the codebase didn't need the degree of deciphering that it does. It makes even minor changes take longer just to make sure I'm not breaking something else along the way -- to say nothing of major changes, which while relatively rare do come along. Again: my biggest need is to decipher the codebase itself, and I would rather it inherently require less effort to do so. There are straightforward principles, like "avoid globals", that are violated left and right in this software by no real necessity. Commenting these aspects is a simply a band-aid on something that should have been engineered better from the beginning.
prerok 6y ago
> that you should write comments such that if the code was removed, someone could use the comments to completely reconstruct it. I think this is an "archaic" concept in line with heavily structured methodologies, where everything is first documented in meticulous detail and then the code will map to documentation 1:1. Anyone heard of/still remembers SSADM? Anyway, that approach has turned out to be less than practical, to say the least, and was one of the reasons the agile methodologies were invented in the first place. The point today is that the documentation should supplement the code to make the other developers/readers of the code aware of the hidden intricacies of the code. Lately, we are focusing on the "why" because it is turning out to be the most useful. As you say, there are still questions on the level of detail of the "why" we need to capture. Mostly, people just go with their gut feeling and that's fine, as long as we take care to calibrate the feeling through feedback and improve it with time. Maybe there could be a formal way of knowing what needs more clarification but I doubt it. We still lack a way of mapping our human level understanding of the system to a formal machine analyzable system, so a computer analyzing our program cannot know what step in the program would be surprising to a human reader.
thdrdt 6y ago
"...an excuse to comment rarely" Well you can also look at it from another angle: unnecessary comments are a distraction and make code less readable. You are not writing comments just to comment. You write them to make things clear. Sometimes I also write comments to explain what, but most of the time those are written in large peaces of logic with multiple steps that cannot (or should not) split into multiple functions. But even then those comments tend to be in the form of 'why'. For example: "// First we do this // Then we do this because.. // And as last step we do this because..." My personal rule for comments: If I come back in half a year, would I still understand what is going on here? No? -> Comment!

Twisol 6y ago

> you should write comments such that if the code was removed, someone could use the comments to completely reconstruct it. I understand that this is just a rule of thumb, but it's so far from anything I could expect to happen in reality that it serves as no justification at all. A codebase is a living entity that grows and changes over time. Without sound justification that butresses both when and when not to comment, advice like this can lead to exactly the brittle comments that disillusion people from commenting as a whole. Comments are just a part of a healthy breakfast. You want the code to be as clear as possible, both in the small (algorithmically) and in the large (architecturally). When the code must necessarily fall short, comments must fill that gap -- and only that gap. (Other forms of documentation serve other needs.) It's like unit tests and integration tests: you want as many unit tests as possible, to give you assurance that the pieces from which you assemble your system are correct. Where unit tests cannot speak, other kinds of tests fill the gaps. But if you try to build your test suite out of integration tests, you'll end up pretty miserable.

perl4ever 6y ago
> advice like this can lead to exactly the brittle comments that disillusion people from commenting as a whole As I turn this over in my head, it doesn't sound that convincing because the whole "code should be self-explanatory" ethos seems to me just as susceptible to encouraging bad behavior. Saying something is clear allows you to elevate yourself and blame others if they don't follow. Expecting people to judge their own communication is a definite conflict of interest. Exaggerated commenting requirements as I described are at least a reminder that you should try to err on the other side. Also, for context, the agency I work for is responsible for an accounting system that affects a lot of people and is very much not a "move fast and break things" place. The most exciting thing that happens year after year is reducing the scheduled downtime window(s). Even that obviously must have diminishing returns. The other thing is that in my particular case, the code I wrote is not directly applicable to the accounting system and is written in a different language, so anyone trying to modify it will probably be relatively inexperienced and there is zero chance of anyone being hired to work on it.
- Twisol 6y ago
  > the whole "code should be self-explanatory" ethos seems to me just as susceptible to encouraging bad behavior. I hope it's clear from what I wrote that I don't think code can be perfectly self-explanatory. I don't think it's all-or-nothing in either direction. I do, however, think that direct clarity is the first line of defense, followed by comments and other documentation artifacts to capture what the code cannot. > Expecting people to judge their own communication is a definite conflict of interest. I don't disagree: while I think it's possible to train your communications so that you meet a minimum bar by default, that training necessarily comes by testing your communication against others. We have peer review processes in part to help account for this: if something isn't clear, that's the first forum of opportunity to address it. The (only) good thing about pithy quotes like "you should be able to rewrite it from the comments" and "code should be self-explanatory" is that they stake out concrete, extreme positions that can be judged on their merits. The space of practice is much wider than the ideologically pure boundary. I'm sure that, for your situation, commenting everything such that it could be rewritten from scratch makes sense. If you needed to pass ownership of a codebase more or less instantaneously, it may make sense as a kind of snapshot of the intent behind the codebase at that point in time. I also work with some critical, ancient software. I wish I had more documentation of all kinds, but mostly because it would help me decipher the codebase itself. I wish the codebase didn't need the degree of deciphering that it does. It makes even minor changes take longer just to make sure I'm not breaking something else along the way -- to say nothing of major changes, which while relatively rare do come along. Again: my biggest need is to decipher the codebase itself, and I would rather it inherently require less effort to do so. There are straightforward principles, like "avoid globals", that are violated left and right in this software by no real necessity. Commenting these aspects is a simply a band-aid on something that should have been engineered better from the beginning.

prerok 6y ago

> that you should write comments such that if the code was removed, someone could use the comments to completely reconstruct it. I think this is an "archaic" concept in line with heavily structured methodologies, where everything is first documented in meticulous detail and then the code will map to documentation 1:1. Anyone heard of/still remembers SSADM? Anyway, that approach has turned out to be less than practical, to say the least, and was one of the reasons the agile methodologies were invented in the first place. The point today is that the documentation should supplement the code to make the other developers/readers of the code aware of the hidden intricacies of the code. Lately, we are focusing on the "why" because it is turning out to be the most useful. As you say, there are still questions on the level of detail of the "why" we need to capture. Mostly, people just go with their gut feeling and that's fine, as long as we take care to calibrate the feeling through feedback and improve it with time. Maybe there could be a formal way of knowing what needs more clarification but I doubt it. We still lack a way of mapping our human level understanding of the system to a formal machine analyzable system, so a computer analyzing our program cannot know what step in the program would be surprising to a human reader.

thdrdt 6y ago

"...an excuse to comment rarely" Well you can also look at it from another angle: unnecessary comments are a distraction and make code less readable. You are not writing comments just to comment. You write them to make things clear. Sometimes I also write comments to explain what, but most of the time those are written in large peaces of logic with multiple steps that cannot (or should not) split into multiple functions. But even then those comments tend to be in the form of 'why'. For example: "// First we do this // Then we do this because.. // And as last step we do this because..." My personal rule for comments: If I come back in half a year, would I still understand what is going on here? No? -> Comment!