8 ms·

Economists have researched that data, and consistently confirmed what the GP asserted: "Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute

Economists have researched that data, and consistently confirmed what the GP asserted: "Research by Daniel Costa, of the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, and Howard University political science professor Ron Hira, found that 60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region. Google, Facebook and Apple “take advantage of program rules in order to legally pay many of their H-1B workers below the local median wage for the jobs they fill,” Costa and Hira said in an Economic Policy Institute paper." (from the article above)

arcticbull 6y ago
"60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region." As opposed to 50% of the normal workforce which receives lower-than-average wages by definition? Feels like that number, while significant, was framed to be sensational. I'm curious how much of this is attributable to: 1. Technical skill level. Are they new grads or junior folks? Is this skew happening because the senior folks roll off onto green cards? 2. Soft skill level. Are employers taking on folks with language skills or management skills or cultural skills that need to be leveled up? Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs?
- monoideism 6y ago
  Actually, I think that number doesn't even really capture the problem. Because it doesn't indicate by how much those workers salary is lower than average. The studies I've seen on this suggest it's a significant gap. I'll see if I can find that study, and others. >Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs? I'd be very surprised if it didn't at least improve. But it still results in suppressed salaries for American workers. And isn't some weird conspiracy that tech CEOs believe salaries are far too high and want to suppress them: we have emails of them discussing exactly that (in another context not involving immigration) EDIT: I previously had some other suggestions, but I think the most beneficial and abuse-proof system for all involved would be to have the tech companies bid for visas (as many others have suggested). That should eliminate the potential for abuse.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    > Also make an O-1 type visa as an immigrant visa. That's unnecessary, as the O-1 has the same requirements as an EB1A green card petition. The immigrant visa form of the O-1 is simply an EB1A petition. It's actually possible to self-petition EB1A. Only India and China have a backlog of EB1A petitions, and their priority dates are ~2017. I'd love to read that study if you dig it up! For what it's worth, I believe in wholesale immigration reform. I think the current system is byzantine and utterly ridiculous and leaves the country at a huge disadvantage compared to the rest of the world. While by no means a Trump supporter, his points-based immigration program that never materialized would be a big, big step in the right direction.
    - monoideism 6y ago
      Interesting about EB1A, didn't know. I agree that we need reform in this area. For one, a bidding system for H1-B type visas could prevent much of the abuse. Like you, I'm not a Trump supporter, but I like the points-based system. Not sure why that got so much criticism (probably simply because it came from him). It's similar to Canada's system, which most people around the globe seem to admire. I hope people can understand that it isn't some kind of xenophobic nativism that inspires the H1-B dislike among some Americans. It's fear for our financial future. It isn't always obvious to those working in SV, but in most of the country, the typical lower- or middle-class worker has not been enjoying a a booming economy in terms of wages. Real wages for the middle- and lower-classes in the US have been stagnant or falling for decades. So we're fighting to get or remain in the middle class. In my own extended family, the generational difference in financial security is stark, despite getting similar degrees, military service, working hard, etc etc. Some cousins are basically falling out of the middle class. Crossing over into some kind of IT work is one of the few remaining paths someone at age 30 can take to remain in the middle class after their profession is lost to globalization or automation. I have a cousin who did it. Anyway, I think real immigration reform won't happen under either of the current political parties. We need something new, which is unlikely to happen. Edit: here the study referenced in that article, at least: https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wa... Edit: Here's the paper I was thinking of. It's pretty convincing to me. I'd be interested in your input: https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pdf https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pd...
- kiliantics 6y ago
  average is a mean, not a median
moultano 6y ago
This paper is really shoddy work. It doesn't even account for the fact that most H1B workers are early in their career and thus more junior employees.
- monoideism 6y ago
  If you want to convince people, please post a paper supporting your point of view, then. My mind is open. I've found one such paper described here, but haven't yet found the original paper: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/05/19/immigration-study-finds-h-1b-visas-help-us-college-grads/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/05/19/immig... If it's accurately described, I have some problems with this one, but still looking for the original.

arcticbull 6y ago

"60% of H-1B workers receive lower-than-average wages for their job and region." As opposed to 50% of the normal workforce which receives lower-than-average wages by definition? Feels like that number, while significant, was framed to be sensational. I'm curious how much of this is attributable to: 1. Technical skill level. Are they new grads or junior folks? Is this skew happening because the senior folks roll off onto green cards? 2. Soft skill level. Are employers taking on folks with language skills or management skills or cultural skills that need to be leveled up? Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs?

monoideism 6y ago
Actually, I think that number doesn't even really capture the problem. Because it doesn't indicate by how much those workers salary is lower than average. The studies I've seen on this suggest it's a significant gap. I'll see if I can find that study, and others. >Does this delta level off over time once foreign workers achieve a certain level of domestic experience? Does it go away once they transfer to new jobs? I'd be very surprised if it didn't at least improve. But it still results in suppressed salaries for American workers. And isn't some weird conspiracy that tech CEOs believe salaries are far too high and want to suppress them: we have emails of them discussing exactly that (in another context not involving immigration) EDIT: I previously had some other suggestions, but I think the most beneficial and abuse-proof system for all involved would be to have the tech companies bid for visas (as many others have suggested). That should eliminate the potential for abuse.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  > Also make an O-1 type visa as an immigrant visa. That's unnecessary, as the O-1 has the same requirements as an EB1A green card petition. The immigrant visa form of the O-1 is simply an EB1A petition. It's actually possible to self-petition EB1A. Only India and China have a backlog of EB1A petitions, and their priority dates are ~2017. I'd love to read that study if you dig it up! For what it's worth, I believe in wholesale immigration reform. I think the current system is byzantine and utterly ridiculous and leaves the country at a huge disadvantage compared to the rest of the world. While by no means a Trump supporter, his points-based immigration program that never materialized would be a big, big step in the right direction.
  - monoideism 6y ago
    Interesting about EB1A, didn't know. I agree that we need reform in this area. For one, a bidding system for H1-B type visas could prevent much of the abuse. Like you, I'm not a Trump supporter, but I like the points-based system. Not sure why that got so much criticism (probably simply because it came from him). It's similar to Canada's system, which most people around the globe seem to admire. I hope people can understand that it isn't some kind of xenophobic nativism that inspires the H1-B dislike among some Americans. It's fear for our financial future. It isn't always obvious to those working in SV, but in most of the country, the typical lower- or middle-class worker has not been enjoying a a booming economy in terms of wages. Real wages for the middle- and lower-classes in the US have been stagnant or falling for decades. So we're fighting to get or remain in the middle class. In my own extended family, the generational difference in financial security is stark, despite getting similar degrees, military service, working hard, etc etc. Some cousins are basically falling out of the middle class. Crossing over into some kind of IT work is one of the few remaining paths someone at age 30 can take to remain in the middle class after their profession is lost to globalization or automation. I have a cousin who did it. Anyway, I think real immigration reform won't happen under either of the current political parties. We need something new, which is unlikely to happen. Edit: here the study referenced in that article, at least: https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wage-levels/ https://www.epi.org/publication/h-1b-visas-and-prevailing-wa... Edit: Here's the paper I was thinking of. It's pretty convincing to me. I'd be interested in your input: https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pdf https://gspp.berkeley.edu/assets/uploads/research/pdf/h1b.pd...
kiliantics 6y ago
average is a mean, not a median

moultano 6y ago

This paper is really shoddy work. It doesn't even account for the fact that most H1B workers are early in their career and thus more junior employees.

monoideism 6y ago
If you want to convince people, please post a paper supporting your point of view, then. My mind is open. I've found one such paper described here, but haven't yet found the original paper: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/05/19/immigration-study-finds-h-1b-visas-help-us-college-grads/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/05/19/immig... If it's accurately described, I have some problems with this one, but still looking for the original.