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I suspect I know why you're being downvoted... WHO say there is no evidence that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus, and if you have the disease, peopl

I suspect I know why you're being downvoted... WHO say there is no evidence that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus, and if you have the disease, people should stay indoors. Therefore the mask is redundant. But wait, the CDC recommend (and where I live TfL have it mandatory) wearing a face mask, otherwise you're "killing grandma". I've even seen plenty of articles suggesting that wearing the mask is making things worse, or that lockdowns are making things worse, etc.. The information overload is getting extreme. So which is it? I wouldn't be surprised if mixed messaging is the reason why people have given up caring. Example: "Young people aren't affected.. wait, yes they are, wait.. umm wait no they're not" Our global institutions having fundamental disagreements is so dangerous. I spend hours every day reading into this stuff and I don't have a clue what I'm supposed to do, so how is the Average Joe who just wants to get along with life supposed to know what the correct course of action is?

willcipriano 6y ago
You know when you were a kid and thought that all the adults had life figured out, then you grew up and discovered that they were just winging it? The older I get I realize the same is true for thought leaders and experts. Nobody will pay you to sit around and tell them that collectively as human beings we don't really have the answer, so what we get is a best guess disguised in a veil of certainty.
gruez 6y ago
>WHO say there is no evidence that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus, and if you have the disease, people should stay indoors. Therefore the mask is redundant. What if you're in the incubation period? AFAIK that doesn't count as being an "asymptomatic carrier" because you eventually show symptoms. >I've even seen plenty of articles suggesting that wearing the mask is making things worse [...] The information overload is getting extreme. Source for this? I've only heard of mask wearing making things worse by proxy (ie. you're depriving healthcare workers of masks). If that's the basis of those claims, it's totally consistent that masks are good and that masks are bad.
- aksss 6y ago
  I don't have a source offhand but can attest that I too have seen some of that material - I consume a lot of reading material daily so not sure on where but can say from recollection that it has critically contemplated the role of mask use from a couple different angles: 1) Are people correctly using masks - e.g. taking higher risks than the relative protection given by type of mask being used - just because you wear a bandana doesn't mean you should be hanging out in large crowds; properly wearing/fitting masks; properly disposing/sanitizing masks. 2) comparison of infection rates for other airborne/aerosol-transmitted diseases in countries/cultures where mask use is traditionally higher than the US, e.g. higher influenza infection rates in countries where mask use is traditionally much higher than US despite their success in containing COVID (taiwan, s. korea); comparison of sick rates of professionals who wear masks at work some of the time vs all day (Australian study of nurses, I think??); comparison of sick rates of people who wear veils when in public vs those that don't in same society. Sorry for lack of source material, but armed with above one might be able to google it out if interested. Personally, I'm starting to like wearing my largely ineffective-but-anonymizing sheer cloth mask in public. I wear a tight N95 on the plane, which sucks (effective PPE is NEVER comfortable to wear for hours), then junk it, but just try and tell me it doesn't help. I think smart monkeys should be staying home unless they have to be in public space. Strongly disagree with threatening jail time for mask noncompliance tho.
IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
That's partly mythological, and partly a symptom of something being rather amiss at the WHO: https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomati... It also feels like you're happy to use some inconsistencies (real or imagined) as license to do whatever you feel like. Considering that only the most deranged lunatics would suggest that health care workers and scientists are actively trying to harm people for some reason, it's odd to pound on any opening they may give you, instead of engaging in a good-faith effort to understand the issues involved and do the bare minimum to protect yourself and your community.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  > It also feels like you're happy to use some inconsistencies (real or imagined) as license to do whatever you feel like Definitely not - my comment was written from a frustrated perspective. The mental exhaustion of keeping up with the latest guidelines, ingesting all these differing opinions and trying to work out what to do, is far more exhausting than reverting to our default state of not giving a fuck (or more accurately: hoping for the best). It's _easier_ to stop caring, and given the virus isn't hurting young people as much, no wonder they're doing the calculus and choosing to go to the pub and get back to normal. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't tempting.
rsynnott 6y ago
> WHO say there is no evidence that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus So, it's true that the WHO said that, although they've since clarified that by 'no evidence' they mean "we don't know", not "it doesn't happen". ('no evidence' is one of those phrases that people misunderstand). However, _pre-symptomatic_ cases are contagious, and there's no way to know if you're negative, asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic, so as public health advice "asymptomatic people may not be contagious" is not useful (it's somewhat useful from and epidemiological standpoint). > I've even seen plenty of articles suggesting that wearing the mask is making things worse There were some early concerns that masks would make people act more riskily, but this doesn't seem to be the case. > or that lockdowns are making things worse Who claimed that?! Look, in any emerging situation, there's a lot of confusion and uncertainty. But it now seems pretty clear that masks don't make things worse, and there's some reason to hope that they make things better. And they're cheap. So people should wear them.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  > So, it's true that the WHO said that, although they've since clarified that by 'no evidence' they mean "we don't know", not "it doesn't happen". ('no evidence' is one of those phrases that people misunderstand). However, _pre-symptomatic_ cases are contagious, and there's no way to know if you're negative, asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic, so as public health advice "asymptomatic people may not be contagious" is not useful (it's somewhat useful from and epidemiological standpoint). I understand this, but curbing on fundamental freedoms based on "no evidence" is a hard sell for many of us. I have the luxury of playing it safe because I'm a remote working software engineer, but if I still worked in a shop like I did a few years ago I could be homeless now. > Who claimed that?! There was "reasonable" (reasonable looking) evidence that locked down states did worse numbers-wise, but this obviously doesn't control for population density. My point is that nobody knows what's going on anymore.
  - perl4ever 6y ago
    >I understand this It sounds like you glided right over the difference between asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic. This seems crucial to the whole cloud of confusion that exists and is being promoted here. Trying to be as charitable as possible, if you were sincere in saying >The information overload is getting extreme. So which is it? The contradiction appears to be directly due to misunderstanding of "asymptomatic" and the follow up comment tried to explain it. I don't doubt this misunderstanding is widespread, but I don't know how to rectify it and it often seems as though people might be deliberately obtuse.

willcipriano 6y ago

You know when you were a kid and thought that all the adults had life figured out, then you grew up and discovered that they were just winging it? The older I get I realize the same is true for thought leaders and experts. Nobody will pay you to sit around and tell them that collectively as human beings we don't really have the answer, so what we get is a best guess disguised in a veil of certainty.

gruez 6y ago

>WHO say there is no evidence that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus, and if you have the disease, people should stay indoors. Therefore the mask is redundant. What if you're in the incubation period? AFAIK that doesn't count as being an "asymptomatic carrier" because you eventually show symptoms. >I've even seen plenty of articles suggesting that wearing the mask is making things worse [...] The information overload is getting extreme. Source for this? I've only heard of mask wearing making things worse by proxy (ie. you're depriving healthcare workers of masks). If that's the basis of those claims, it's totally consistent that masks are good and that masks are bad.

aksss 6y ago
I don't have a source offhand but can attest that I too have seen some of that material - I consume a lot of reading material daily so not sure on where but can say from recollection that it has critically contemplated the role of mask use from a couple different angles: 1) Are people correctly using masks - e.g. taking higher risks than the relative protection given by type of mask being used - just because you wear a bandana doesn't mean you should be hanging out in large crowds; properly wearing/fitting masks; properly disposing/sanitizing masks. 2) comparison of infection rates for other airborne/aerosol-transmitted diseases in countries/cultures where mask use is traditionally higher than the US, e.g. higher influenza infection rates in countries where mask use is traditionally much higher than US despite their success in containing COVID (taiwan, s. korea); comparison of sick rates of professionals who wear masks at work some of the time vs all day (Australian study of nurses, I think??); comparison of sick rates of people who wear veils when in public vs those that don't in same society. Sorry for lack of source material, but armed with above one might be able to google it out if interested. Personally, I'm starting to like wearing my largely ineffective-but-anonymizing sheer cloth mask in public. I wear a tight N95 on the plane, which sucks (effective PPE is NEVER comfortable to wear for hours), then junk it, but just try and tell me it doesn't help. I think smart monkeys should be staying home unless they have to be in public space. Strongly disagree with threatening jail time for mask noncompliance tho.

IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago

That's partly mythological, and partly a symptom of something being rather amiss at the WHO: https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomatic-spread-covid-19/ https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/09/who-comments-asymptomati... It also feels like you're happy to use some inconsistencies (real or imagined) as license to do whatever you feel like. Considering that only the most deranged lunatics would suggest that health care workers and scientists are actively trying to harm people for some reason, it's odd to pound on any opening they may give you, instead of engaging in a good-faith effort to understand the issues involved and do the bare minimum to protect yourself and your community.

cameronbrown 6y ago
> It also feels like you're happy to use some inconsistencies (real or imagined) as license to do whatever you feel like Definitely not - my comment was written from a frustrated perspective. The mental exhaustion of keeping up with the latest guidelines, ingesting all these differing opinions and trying to work out what to do, is far more exhausting than reverting to our default state of not giving a fuck (or more accurately: hoping for the best). It's _easier_ to stop caring, and given the virus isn't hurting young people as much, no wonder they're doing the calculus and choosing to go to the pub and get back to normal. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't tempting.

rsynnott 6y ago

> WHO say there is no evidence that asymptomatic carriers can spread the virus So, it's true that the WHO said that, although they've since clarified that by 'no evidence' they mean "we don't know", not "it doesn't happen". ('no evidence' is one of those phrases that people misunderstand). However, _pre-symptomatic_ cases are contagious, and there's no way to know if you're negative, asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic, so as public health advice "asymptomatic people may not be contagious" is not useful (it's somewhat useful from and epidemiological standpoint). > I've even seen plenty of articles suggesting that wearing the mask is making things worse There were some early concerns that masks would make people act more riskily, but this doesn't seem to be the case. > or that lockdowns are making things worse Who claimed that?! Look, in any emerging situation, there's a lot of confusion and uncertainty. But it now seems pretty clear that masks don't make things worse, and there's some reason to hope that they make things better. And they're cheap. So people should wear them.

cameronbrown 6y ago
> So, it's true that the WHO said that, although they've since clarified that by 'no evidence' they mean "we don't know", not "it doesn't happen". ('no evidence' is one of those phrases that people misunderstand). However, _pre-symptomatic_ cases are contagious, and there's no way to know if you're negative, asymptomatic, or pre-symptomatic, so as public health advice "asymptomatic people may not be contagious" is not useful (it's somewhat useful from and epidemiological standpoint). I understand this, but curbing on fundamental freedoms based on "no evidence" is a hard sell for many of us. I have the luxury of playing it safe because I'm a remote working software engineer, but if I still worked in a shop like I did a few years ago I could be homeless now. > Who claimed that?! There was "reasonable" (reasonable looking) evidence that locked down states did worse numbers-wise, but this obviously doesn't control for population density. My point is that nobody knows what's going on anymore.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  >I understand this It sounds like you glided right over the difference between asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic. This seems crucial to the whole cloud of confusion that exists and is being promoted here. Trying to be as charitable as possible, if you were sincere in saying >The information overload is getting extreme. So which is it? The contradiction appears to be directly due to misunderstanding of "asymptomatic" and the follow up comment tried to explain it. I don't doubt this misunderstanding is widespread, but I don't know how to rectify it and it often seems as though people might be deliberately obtuse.