4 ms·

No one actually believes the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis anymore, do they?

anghyflawn 16y ago
Not quite, and there has been some interesting experimental work lately... but no, not really. Here is a relevant link from Language Log, and there are many more where this comes from: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2592 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2592 (edit for typo)
pjscott 16y ago
Weakened versions of it definitely hold true for programming languages. Try writing software to solve the same non-trivial problem in several different programming languages, and this will quickly become apparent. I did this, over the past several months, in Python, Haskell, JavaScript, and C. The Python and JavaScript versions felt pretty similar, but Haskell and C felt unique. If I weren't so busy right now, I'd re-write it in Lisp. I'm pretty sure it would fit naturally with Lisp.
long 16y ago
I'm a grad student in cognitive psychology; my advisor works in the so-called "neo-Whorfian" literature. What Sapir and Whorf were proposing is nowadays called "linguistic determinism" and is pretty much universally repudiated. However, there is evidence for a less radical version called "linguistic relativity". For an example, see this paper: langcog.stanford.edu/papers/winawer2007.pdf
- paganel 16y ago
  > and is pretty much universally repudiated. Just curious, based on what?
  - Hemospectrum 16y ago
    Ever been unable to think of a word for what you wanted to say? Strictly speaking, linguistic determinism claims that this is impossible.
    - paganel 16y ago
      > Ever been unable to think of a word for what you wanted to say? Wouldn't that be an "unknown unknown"? My mother-tongue, Romanian, has a word called dor, whose exact meaning/translation I could never find in any English-written text. It doesn't describe unicorns in heavens or any such non-existent thing, in fact there is a similar term called saudade in Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade), but the thing is that in order to get its full meaning you need to have it included in a larger text, because words by themselves don't mean anything.
    - bane 16y ago
      Under conditions where you know there is a word for a thing but can't recall it or conditions where you don't know if there is a name for such a thing?
  - archgoon 16y ago
    Hi, a history of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
- noblethrasher 16y ago
  I haven't read the whole paper yet but I find it interesting that the Russian language prescribes a distinction between light blue and dark blue and that it just so happens that humans are more sensitive to blue than than red or green. In fact, many expert Photoshop artists are aware of a trick whereby they can make small changes to the blue channel to get dramatic effects on the composite.
  - long 16y ago
    This (wikipedia) article on distinguishing blue from green may be of interest to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_in_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_...
  - jacobolus 16y ago
    > humans are more sensitive to blue than than red or green Without clarification, this is a nearly meaningless statement, but under the most plausible interpretations I can think of it is wrong [in particular, we have few "short wavelength" S cones in the fovea, the very central part of the retina, and it is the signal in these S cones which allow us to distinguish yellow from blue; the S cones contribute much less to lightness response than M or L cones]. What human vision is primarily sensitive to is differences between a color and its surroundings, and the relative sensitivity to differences along light/dark, red/green, blue/yellow dimensions depends enough on the size of the object, the prevalence of such differences in the rest of the scene, the state of adaptation of the eye, and so on. At small scale, we are most sensitive to lightness contrast, and two objects of similar lightness will tend to blend together at the edge even if they are of quite different hue.
    - bane 16y ago
      It's also wrong, human photoreceptors are more sensitive to green wavelengths than blue or red. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green "The sensitivity of the dark-adapted human eye is greatest at about 507 nm, a bluish-green color, while the light-adapted eye is most sensitive about 555 nm, a yellowish-green color" It's why night-vision systems are geared to green, but displays that preserve dark-adapted vision are red. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red "Red light is also used to preserve night vision in low-light or night-time situations, as the rod cells in the human eye aren't sensitive to red."
baddox 16y ago
They don't? That's news to me. Linguistic relativity, at least using a weaker "intuitive" understanding of the concept, seems like the most obvious thing in the world.
msutherl 16y ago
I think it's a bit silly not to acknowledge that a weak version of linguistic relativity holds. Anybody who's ever learned a new word can see intuitively that language has an effect on your conceptualization of the world. This is an interesting read on the way that the so-called "Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis" has been used as a straw man argument over the years. There is also some fascinating material on Whorf's work: http://www.enformy.com/dma-Chap7.htm http://www.enformy.com/dma-Chap7.htm ("The Great Whorf Hypothesis Hoax")

Not quite, and there has been some interesting experimental work lately... but no, not really. Here is a relevant link from Language Log, and there are many more where this comes from: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2592 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2592 (edit for typo)

pjscott 16y ago

Weakened versions of it definitely hold true for programming languages. Try writing software to solve the same non-trivial problem in several different programming languages, and this will quickly become apparent. I did this, over the past several months, in Python, Haskell, JavaScript, and C. The Python and JavaScript versions felt pretty similar, but Haskell and C felt unique. If I weren't so busy right now, I'd re-write it in Lisp. I'm pretty sure it would fit naturally with Lisp.

long 16y ago

I'm a grad student in cognitive psychology; my advisor works in the so-called "neo-Whorfian" literature. What Sapir and Whorf were proposing is nowadays called "linguistic determinism" and is pretty much universally repudiated. However, there is evidence for a less radical version called "linguistic relativity". For an example, see this paper: langcog.stanford.edu/papers/winawer2007.pdf

paganel 16y ago
> and is pretty much universally repudiated. Just curious, based on what?
- Hemospectrum 16y ago
  Ever been unable to think of a word for what you wanted to say? Strictly speaking, linguistic determinism claims that this is impossible.
  - paganel 16y ago
    > Ever been unable to think of a word for what you wanted to say? Wouldn't that be an "unknown unknown"? My mother-tongue, Romanian, has a word called dor, whose exact meaning/translation I could never find in any English-written text. It doesn't describe unicorns in heavens or any such non-existent thing, in fact there is a similar term called saudade in Portuguese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudade), but the thing is that in order to get its full meaning you need to have it included in a larger text, because words by themselves don't mean anything.
  - bane 16y ago
    Under conditions where you know there is a word for a thing but can't recall it or conditions where you don't know if there is a name for such a thing?
- archgoon 16y ago
  Hi, a history of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
noblethrasher 16y ago
I haven't read the whole paper yet but I find it interesting that the Russian language prescribes a distinction between light blue and dark blue and that it just so happens that humans are more sensitive to blue than than red or green. In fact, many expert Photoshop artists are aware of a trick whereby they can make small changes to the blue channel to get dramatic effects on the composite.
- long 16y ago
  This (wikipedia) article on distinguishing blue from green may be of interest to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_in_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_...
- jacobolus 16y ago
  > humans are more sensitive to blue than than red or green Without clarification, this is a nearly meaningless statement, but under the most plausible interpretations I can think of it is wrong [in particular, we have few "short wavelength" S cones in the fovea, the very central part of the retina, and it is the signal in these S cones which allow us to distinguish yellow from blue; the S cones contribute much less to lightness response than M or L cones]. What human vision is primarily sensitive to is differences between a color and its surroundings, and the relative sensitivity to differences along light/dark, red/green, blue/yellow dimensions depends enough on the size of the object, the prevalence of such differences in the rest of the scene, the state of adaptation of the eye, and so on. At small scale, we are most sensitive to lightness contrast, and two objects of similar lightness will tend to blend together at the edge even if they are of quite different hue.
  - bane 16y ago
    It's also wrong, human photoreceptors are more sensitive to green wavelengths than blue or red. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green "The sensitivity of the dark-adapted human eye is greatest at about 507 nm, a bluish-green color, while the light-adapted eye is most sensitive about 555 nm, a yellowish-green color" It's why night-vision systems are geared to green, but displays that preserve dark-adapted vision are red. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red "Red light is also used to preserve night vision in low-light or night-time situations, as the rod cells in the human eye aren't sensitive to red."

baddox 16y ago

They don't? That's news to me. Linguistic relativity, at least using a weaker "intuitive" understanding of the concept, seems like the most obvious thing in the world.

msutherl 16y ago

I think it's a bit silly not to acknowledge that a weak version of linguistic relativity holds. Anybody who's ever learned a new word can see intuitively that language has an effect on your conceptualization of the world. This is an interesting read on the way that the so-called "Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis" has been used as a straw man argument over the years. There is also some fascinating material on Whorf's work: http://www.enformy.com/dma-Chap7.htm http://www.enformy.com/dma-Chap7.htm ("The Great Whorf Hypothesis Hoax")