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UBI will never be successful because it short-circuits the innate need to survive. Many people are not self-leaders and some will turn to drugs when they have n

by eezurr 6y ago

UBI will never be successful because it short-circuits the innate need to survive. Many people are not self-leaders and some will turn to drugs when they have no purpose to live. In this case, you've taken away their ladder to climb which is used to measure self-worth. Think about how many people struggle to find the discipline to exercise. People need structure, it's a fundamental part of being a pact mammal.

wolfgang42 6y ago
Surely there are nicer ways for people to find structure in their lives than the threat of utter ruin if they don’t perform the mandatory sacrifice?
- eezurr 6y ago
  That^ system-structure is what also rewards[1] people for their efforts for their work and suffering, etc. With UBI, you'd need to replace that system-structure to reproduce those rewards[1]. This is not possible (or rather, the implications are disturbing). The inability for many people to put the work ethic effort into building their own rewards is evident by the present time. People will take the easiest path possible to soften the realities of surviving[2]. This is also evident from the design choices behind successful, addicting platforms and video games. [1] (ownership growth, material gains, physical gains (or rather, losses, since we are talking about fat/cholesterol, et. al), emotional growth, social network growth, personal network growth (trust)) [2] (economically, emotionally; all people, not just the poor) UBI is also dangerous because it cannot be removed without wrecking havoc on society. It must remain successful, especially once the next generation is born into it.
  - UncleOxidant 6y ago
    > That^ system-structure is what also rewards[1] people for their efforts for their work and suffering, etc. No, especially jobs at the low end are not rewarding people for their hard work. At best most of these jobs just allow people to subsist. And even at higher levels of income there is lots of work that's just meaningless. Yeah, they might be getting some financial rewards, but it might not be far off from just giving people financial rewards for playing some video game - I'm not necessarily saying we should do that, but that it would essentially have the same societal effect.
AWildC182 6y ago
I have so much stuff I'm working on/want to work on but I have no time due to my 9-5. We don't need 100k/yr UBI, we need barely enough to cover basic rent and food so that people can survive working part time while starting businesses or furthering the arts and sciences. Yea, a lot of people who aren't into that stuff would languish but it's not like they AREN'T languishing right now. How much value does making someone else rich bring to your life if you're pissing it away behind a KFC register?
jostylr 6y ago
People are forced into needing external management. The innate nature of life is to self-lead, but 15 years of being told to sit in a chair and listen to someone else blah-blah-ing will kill that idea. We do want to be valuable to one another. Right now, we are valued by how much money we have. The dream of a UBI is to move beyond such a silly measurement of human worth and let the measure of value be based on actual deeds. We don't need a boss to tell us what to do. We just need to be a part of a community. Stuff happens, we respond. With the lockdown, many were given permission to do nothing. And many, many people found ways to do something nonetheless. We seek to give, to participate, to find our own way.

by eezurr 6y ago

wolfgang42 6y ago

Surely there are nicer ways for people to find structure in their lives than the threat of utter ruin if they don’t perform the mandatory sacrifice?

eezurr 6y ago
That^ system-structure is what also rewards[1] people for their efforts for their work and suffering, etc. With UBI, you'd need to replace that system-structure to reproduce those rewards[1]. This is not possible (or rather, the implications are disturbing). The inability for many people to put the work ethic effort into building their own rewards is evident by the present time. People will take the easiest path possible to soften the realities of surviving[2]. This is also evident from the design choices behind successful, addicting platforms and video games. [1] (ownership growth, material gains, physical gains (or rather, losses, since we are talking about fat/cholesterol, et. al), emotional growth, social network growth, personal network growth (trust)) [2] (economically, emotionally; all people, not just the poor) UBI is also dangerous because it cannot be removed without wrecking havoc on society. It must remain successful, especially once the next generation is born into it.
- UncleOxidant 6y ago
  > That^ system-structure is what also rewards[1] people for their efforts for their work and suffering, etc. No, especially jobs at the low end are not rewarding people for their hard work. At best most of these jobs just allow people to subsist. And even at higher levels of income there is lots of work that's just meaningless. Yeah, they might be getting some financial rewards, but it might not be far off from just giving people financial rewards for playing some video game - I'm not necessarily saying we should do that, but that it would essentially have the same societal effect.

AWildC182 6y ago

I have so much stuff I'm working on/want to work on but I have no time due to my 9-5. We don't need 100k/yr UBI, we need barely enough to cover basic rent and food so that people can survive working part time while starting businesses or furthering the arts and sciences. Yea, a lot of people who aren't into that stuff would languish but it's not like they AREN'T languishing right now. How much value does making someone else rich bring to your life if you're pissing it away behind a KFC register?

jostylr 6y ago

People are forced into needing external management. The innate nature of life is to self-lead, but 15 years of being told to sit in a chair and listen to someone else blah-blah-ing will kill that idea. We do want to be valuable to one another. Right now, we are valued by how much money we have. The dream of a UBI is to move beyond such a silly measurement of human worth and let the measure of value be based on actual deeds. We don't need a boss to tell us what to do. We just need to be a part of a community. Stuff happens, we respond. With the lockdown, many were given permission to do nothing. And many, many people found ways to do something nonetheless. We seek to give, to participate, to find our own way.