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Another way to look at this is that maybe our current economic system is failing to find productive ways to put us to work, even though the world is unfinished.

Another way to look at this is that maybe our current economic system is failing to find productive ways to put us to work, even though the world is unfinished. We have a world on a collision course with climate change and instead of bullshit, hundreds of millions of people could be diverted to geoengineering and green energy projects. We have housing crises in dozens of cities, but our economies are not putting enough people to work building housing. Children are being left under-educated, elderly under-cared for. Billions live in poverty, but our economies are not creating material comfort for them. And once we take care of all that, we have a system full of dead planets and moons that could be turned into gardens. There is plenty to do, but a failure of incentives to do it.

omosubi 6y ago
I have often thought we should have a military style group that teaches kids the discipline and self respect of the military but without the killing aspects and then out them to use rehabbing natural areas, cleaning up manufacturing sites, teaching kids, etc. It's sort of like the civilian conservation corps of the new deal but with a wider scope.
sdenton4 6y ago
Curiously, a lot of the big problems you mention can be mitigated by slowing things down. We're seeing directly what happens to emissions when we reduce the number of people commuting and flying on a daily basis. And getting rid of bullshit jobs frees up a lot of people for child and elder care, for people they care about beyond their economic relationship.
abj 6y ago
All of these tasks seem like more useful than assigning jira tickets. How do we fix the incentive structure to incentivize all these tasks? I'm genuinely interested in helping, but I'm not sure how except through some effective charity. I feel like you've done a great job of summing up what a large percentage of white collar workers are thinking.
- dougmwne 6y ago
  On a personal level I sacrifice income in order to work for an environmental nonprofit. I believe my work is important to my organization and that my organization truly provides value to the world. I also think that very few people have the luxury of making choices misaligned with economic incentives and that preaching personal responsibility is a ridiculous cop out that is often argued in bad faith by leaders that want to avoid addressing an issue. So I think the only way to change the incentives is to change the governance. Vote, protest, advocate, make campaign contributions, run for local political office. Political action may seem like an underwhelming answer, but it is how us humans organize our societies.
  - abj 6y ago
    I'm one of the those people that have the luxury of making choices misaligned with their economic incentives. What you've mentioned is great, actionable advice. I also agree that personal responsibility is a cop out, but at least for myself I can switch jobs to an organization that seems to be making the world a better place, beyond the kool aid. I'll look into what political action I could take. I really appreciate the level headed advice.
- neilparikh 6y ago
  I'll give it a stab: > climate change Implement a high carbon tax/fee, and companies are now willing to spend money to reduce their carbon footprint, as long as the cost to reduce is less than the tax (so the tax has to high enough). For the geoengineering case, you can simply to the same thing, in reverse: offer money for carbon capture. Both of these create an opportunity for new businesses and jobs, since companies usually don't have the climate related expertise in house. > housing crisis From what I see, the incentives are already there to build more housing, but the government (and those who already live there!) in many jurisdictions puts up as many barriers as possible to prevent people from actually acting on those incentives. The solution, then, is to convince the government and those who live there to allow people to build (there's already a long line of organizations, both for-profit and non-profit, who'd gladly start build tomorrow if they could). As dougmwne mentioned, both of these ultimately require political action. I'm not aware of what organizations are advocating for a carbon tax, but in the case of housing, YIMBY does some good work.
clairity 6y ago
to be more blunt, the bullshit jobs are those chasing returns for capital disconnected from commensurate return to the public good, leaving little to tackle meaningful issues. corrupting forces work relentlessly against economic systems to break the tie between capital returns and returns to public good (a key tenet of capitalism, incidentally), to serve the former at the expense of the latter. we keep failing to directly face this most critical distortion to incentives in economic systems. fixing that would lead to a better world for us all, not just the selfish and greedy.
- dougmwne 6y ago
  We will never eliminate human greed or selfishness. It is a common thread throughout all societies and historical eras. Our challenge is to build a political and economic system that will produce optimal outcomes no matter the "moral fortitude" of the agents working within the system. At its most basic, it probably requires a re-work of currency, though I think we need innovations throughout our economy and government. It's clear to me that this "ism" has't been invented yet, because once it is, it will quickly dominate the world economy as it organizes our labor more efficiently.
  - clairity 6y ago
    yes, the ingenuity of capitalism is redirecting selfishness and greed toward societally productive uses, rather than attempting to eliminate them. but that mechanism has largely been subverted from a relentless onslaught over the last many decades (cartels, regulatory capture, etc.). but i'm not sure why currency needs reworking? unless you mean the central banking system and where and how money gets injected into the economy? (having just watched hamilton, the interesting bit to me how instrumental he was in the creation of our financial system as much as anything else--something that didn't stick from high school history apparently)
    - dougmwne 6y ago
      I mean money is a synthetic concept and can function however we define and people will continue to chase large amounts of it. Bitcoin was an interesting thought experiment but seemed on a trajectory to convert the planet's crust into mining hardware. Money should probably have some kind of variable decay factor similar to inflation or maybe some kind of antipolarity to prevent it from clumping into large, passive collections. Maybe it should decay faster in large accounts than small accounts or decay faster if it hasn't passed through a tax system recently. Maybe small amounts should automatically earn interest to encourage individuals to save emergency funds and very small amounts could grow rapidly to provide basic income. I see no reason that the rich should be able have generational wealth without much incentive to take risks.

omosubi 6y ago

I have often thought we should have a military style group that teaches kids the discipline and self respect of the military but without the killing aspects and then out them to use rehabbing natural areas, cleaning up manufacturing sites, teaching kids, etc. It's sort of like the civilian conservation corps of the new deal but with a wider scope.

sdenton4 6y ago

Curiously, a lot of the big problems you mention can be mitigated by slowing things down. We're seeing directly what happens to emissions when we reduce the number of people commuting and flying on a daily basis. And getting rid of bullshit jobs frees up a lot of people for child and elder care, for people they care about beyond their economic relationship.

abj 6y ago

All of these tasks seem like more useful than assigning jira tickets. How do we fix the incentive structure to incentivize all these tasks? I'm genuinely interested in helping, but I'm not sure how except through some effective charity. I feel like you've done a great job of summing up what a large percentage of white collar workers are thinking.

dougmwne 6y ago
On a personal level I sacrifice income in order to work for an environmental nonprofit. I believe my work is important to my organization and that my organization truly provides value to the world. I also think that very few people have the luxury of making choices misaligned with economic incentives and that preaching personal responsibility is a ridiculous cop out that is often argued in bad faith by leaders that want to avoid addressing an issue. So I think the only way to change the incentives is to change the governance. Vote, protest, advocate, make campaign contributions, run for local political office. Political action may seem like an underwhelming answer, but it is how us humans organize our societies.
- abj 6y ago
  I'm one of the those people that have the luxury of making choices misaligned with their economic incentives. What you've mentioned is great, actionable advice. I also agree that personal responsibility is a cop out, but at least for myself I can switch jobs to an organization that seems to be making the world a better place, beyond the kool aid. I'll look into what political action I could take. I really appreciate the level headed advice.
neilparikh 6y ago
I'll give it a stab: > climate change Implement a high carbon tax/fee, and companies are now willing to spend money to reduce their carbon footprint, as long as the cost to reduce is less than the tax (so the tax has to high enough). For the geoengineering case, you can simply to the same thing, in reverse: offer money for carbon capture. Both of these create an opportunity for new businesses and jobs, since companies usually don't have the climate related expertise in house. > housing crisis From what I see, the incentives are already there to build more housing, but the government (and those who already live there!) in many jurisdictions puts up as many barriers as possible to prevent people from actually acting on those incentives. The solution, then, is to convince the government and those who live there to allow people to build (there's already a long line of organizations, both for-profit and non-profit, who'd gladly start build tomorrow if they could). As dougmwne mentioned, both of these ultimately require political action. I'm not aware of what organizations are advocating for a carbon tax, but in the case of housing, YIMBY does some good work.

clairity 6y ago

to be more blunt, the bullshit jobs are those chasing returns for capital disconnected from commensurate return to the public good, leaving little to tackle meaningful issues. corrupting forces work relentlessly against economic systems to break the tie between capital returns and returns to public good (a key tenet of capitalism, incidentally), to serve the former at the expense of the latter. we keep failing to directly face this most critical distortion to incentives in economic systems. fixing that would lead to a better world for us all, not just the selfish and greedy.

dougmwne 6y ago
We will never eliminate human greed or selfishness. It is a common thread throughout all societies and historical eras. Our challenge is to build a political and economic system that will produce optimal outcomes no matter the "moral fortitude" of the agents working within the system. At its most basic, it probably requires a re-work of currency, though I think we need innovations throughout our economy and government. It's clear to me that this "ism" has't been invented yet, because once it is, it will quickly dominate the world economy as it organizes our labor more efficiently.
- clairity 6y ago
  yes, the ingenuity of capitalism is redirecting selfishness and greed toward societally productive uses, rather than attempting to eliminate them. but that mechanism has largely been subverted from a relentless onslaught over the last many decades (cartels, regulatory capture, etc.). but i'm not sure why currency needs reworking? unless you mean the central banking system and where and how money gets injected into the economy? (having just watched hamilton, the interesting bit to me how instrumental he was in the creation of our financial system as much as anything else--something that didn't stick from high school history apparently)
  - dougmwne 6y ago
    I mean money is a synthetic concept and can function however we define and people will continue to chase large amounts of it. Bitcoin was an interesting thought experiment but seemed on a trajectory to convert the planet's crust into mining hardware. Money should probably have some kind of variable decay factor similar to inflation or maybe some kind of antipolarity to prevent it from clumping into large, passive collections. Maybe it should decay faster in large accounts than small accounts or decay faster if it hasn't passed through a tax system recently. Maybe small amounts should automatically earn interest to encourage individuals to save emergency funds and very small amounts could grow rapidly to provide basic income. I see no reason that the rich should be able have generational wealth without much incentive to take risks.