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I love that it's considered entitled to imagine creating a world that's not based on the machinery of capitalism and subjecting people to work jobs that are cre

I love that it's considered entitled to imagine creating a world that's not based on the machinery of capitalism and subjecting people to work jobs that are created by fealty to business. It's possible to be economically productive and consider the methods in which we create our economy. We are capable of that.

anm89 6y ago
Sure, go start your own company and do whatever the hell you want. Go start a commune and grow radishes and have drum circles. I'm not saying that sarcastically, that actually sounds great and you have the absolute right and ability to go do it and create something purposeful for your life. But if you go work for Johnson and Johnson what makes you think you are entitled to them providing purpose for you? I mean demand it all you want, they aren't going to give it to you and they shouldn't. They bulk produce soap. It isn't their concern what you subjectively think is purposeful. They need someone to inspect the labels on those containers. The purpose is that it makes them money, not that it provides you happiness and that is the way it should and always will be.
- igammarays 6y ago
  If the job is indeed necessary to bulk produce a household necessity like soap, then that’s not what is defined as a “bullshit job” by Graeber. Producing soap, no matter how boring, is not a bullshit job. He’s talking about jobs that literally do nothing useful for anyone, could be removed with no consequences, not even to the company paying them. These jobs exist, and I’ve seen it.
  - anm89 6y ago
    This is total nonsense. Are you suggesting that there are companies out there, who are making money but do literally nothing? Or are you suggesting that within companies that do something, there are people who are paid staff but who have no job description? That doesn't make any sense. Every company claims it does something and claims that every employee has some role. The bullshit jobs part is when people perceive that it doesn't actually matter, not when they literally do nothing and have no job description. I challenge you to present an example of a bullshit job, given your own criteria, that doesn't also meet mine. I assure you can't because it essentially tautologically cannot exist.
    - PascLeRasc 6y ago
      Hedge fund.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - igammarays 6y ago
      I once worked as a software engineer at a YC startup which claimed to provide some kind of an “enhanced credit report” for landlords to check their prospective tenants. Millions of people had used their software. When I checked their codebase I found out that they literally just pulled an existing Equifax report, repackaged it in a slightly different format, and made up some completely bullshit numbers out of thin air (some were literally random numbers that could not be reproduced even with the same inputs). This startup received several rounds of funding in the millions of $ and had over a dozen software engineers.
      - anm89 6y ago
        What does this have to do with bullshit jobs? If the company exists solely to repackage credit scores via marketing and some ui work, and everyone on pay role is doing something related to those tasks than none of them have bullshit jobs. They may have jobs that you don't like or understand the need for but that's not what a bullshit job is.

anm89 6y ago

Sure, go start your own company and do whatever the hell you want. Go start a commune and grow radishes and have drum circles. I'm not saying that sarcastically, that actually sounds great and you have the absolute right and ability to go do it and create something purposeful for your life. But if you go work for Johnson and Johnson what makes you think you are entitled to them providing purpose for you? I mean demand it all you want, they aren't going to give it to you and they shouldn't. They bulk produce soap. It isn't their concern what you subjectively think is purposeful. They need someone to inspect the labels on those containers. The purpose is that it makes them money, not that it provides you happiness and that is the way it should and always will be.

igammarays 6y ago
If the job is indeed necessary to bulk produce a household necessity like soap, then that’s not what is defined as a “bullshit job” by Graeber. Producing soap, no matter how boring, is not a bullshit job. He’s talking about jobs that literally do nothing useful for anyone, could be removed with no consequences, not even to the company paying them. These jobs exist, and I’ve seen it.
- anm89 6y ago
  This is total nonsense. Are you suggesting that there are companies out there, who are making money but do literally nothing? Or are you suggesting that within companies that do something, there are people who are paid staff but who have no job description? That doesn't make any sense. Every company claims it does something and claims that every employee has some role. The bullshit jobs part is when people perceive that it doesn't actually matter, not when they literally do nothing and have no job description. I challenge you to present an example of a bullshit job, given your own criteria, that doesn't also meet mine. I assure you can't because it essentially tautologically cannot exist.
  - PascLeRasc 6y ago
    Hedge fund.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - igammarays 6y ago
    I once worked as a software engineer at a YC startup which claimed to provide some kind of an “enhanced credit report” for landlords to check their prospective tenants. Millions of people had used their software. When I checked their codebase I found out that they literally just pulled an existing Equifax report, repackaged it in a slightly different format, and made up some completely bullshit numbers out of thin air (some were literally random numbers that could not be reproduced even with the same inputs). This startup received several rounds of funding in the millions of $ and had over a dozen software engineers.
    - anm89 6y ago
      What does this have to do with bullshit jobs? If the company exists solely to repackage credit scores via marketing and some ui work, and everyone on pay role is doing something related to those tasks than none of them have bullshit jobs. They may have jobs that you don't like or understand the need for but that's not what a bullshit job is.