4 ms·

How does this happen? What (apparently huge) swath of industry am I insulated from where this can take root? Is this just a bunch of wannabes after tech salar

How does this happen? What (apparently huge) swath of industry am I insulated from where this can take root? Is this just a bunch of wannabes after tech salaries? Or is this is a side-effect of industrial java programming, where their "job" was basically filling in boilerplate? (I am probably unfairly slandering java shops, it seems unlikely, but everything else seems even more unlikely) It boggles my mind.

Afton 6y ago
I think it usually involves 'helper' type folks. They end up on a project, and they 'help' the project get done. But the work they do tends to be just the boilerplate (or cut-and-paste style work), or just the gathering of test resources, or a surprising amount of work that you would assume that the PM or Manager would do, but instead is done by this person (organizing meetings, setting up checklists, emailing people about current issues/priorities). This isn't to say that those people don't add value, but if they do this for a few years, they may find that their ability to do greenfield coding has significantly diminished, so much so that they struggle to write objectively simple code because they've fallen out of practice. Source: I've been one of those people, and I've worked with many. It's an easy rut to fall into, particularly in Test Engineer role (what MS used to call SDET roles).
kqr 6y ago
There's the concept of the "expert beginner" who works in a role when they're never challenged, so they quickly assume they're great at the thing when from a global perspective, the just stopped learning very quickly. There's also the type that accidentally falls into a manager-type role way too soon, before they've actually had a proper chance to learn programming well. Then whatever basic skills they had atrophies quickly.
cuddlybacon 6y ago
It's partially just a numbers game. If you assume the top third of candidates only need 2 interviews to get an offer, the middle third need 5, and the bottom third need 15, then 15 / (2 + 5 + 15) = 68% percent of the candidates you interview will be from the bottom third. This, of course, ignores every human factor but it is a starting point.
decafninja 6y ago
It boggles my mind too. I've conducted a fair number of interviews both phone and in-person, and I don't think I've ever encountered anyone remotely that bad. I work in a non-tech company (bank), so I assume the general caliber of candidates is quite lower than what a bonafide Silicon Valley style tech company would see. Would the typical candidate I interview be able to pass a DS&A leetcode medium or hard, getting the superoptimal solution on the first try within <40 minutes? Probably not. Maybe most of them wouldn't be able to do so on a harder leetcode easy problem either. But most are still able to code up an acceptable solution to a more "realistic" in-person coding exercise we give them.

Afton 6y ago

I think it usually involves 'helper' type folks. They end up on a project, and they 'help' the project get done. But the work they do tends to be just the boilerplate (or cut-and-paste style work), or just the gathering of test resources, or a surprising amount of work that you would assume that the PM or Manager would do, but instead is done by this person (organizing meetings, setting up checklists, emailing people about current issues/priorities). This isn't to say that those people don't add value, but if they do this for a few years, they may find that their ability to do greenfield coding has significantly diminished, so much so that they struggle to write objectively simple code because they've fallen out of practice. Source: I've been one of those people, and I've worked with many. It's an easy rut to fall into, particularly in Test Engineer role (what MS used to call SDET roles).

kqr 6y ago

There's the concept of the "expert beginner" who works in a role when they're never challenged, so they quickly assume they're great at the thing when from a global perspective, the just stopped learning very quickly. There's also the type that accidentally falls into a manager-type role way too soon, before they've actually had a proper chance to learn programming well. Then whatever basic skills they had atrophies quickly.

cuddlybacon 6y ago

It's partially just a numbers game. If you assume the top third of candidates only need 2 interviews to get an offer, the middle third need 5, and the bottom third need 15, then 15 / (2 + 5 + 15) = 68% percent of the candidates you interview will be from the bottom third. This, of course, ignores every human factor but it is a starting point.

decafninja 6y ago

It boggles my mind too. I've conducted a fair number of interviews both phone and in-person, and I don't think I've ever encountered anyone remotely that bad. I work in a non-tech company (bank), so I assume the general caliber of candidates is quite lower than what a bonafide Silicon Valley style tech company would see. Would the typical candidate I interview be able to pass a DS&A leetcode medium or hard, getting the superoptimal solution on the first try within <40 minutes? Probably not. Maybe most of them wouldn't be able to do so on a harder leetcode easy problem either. But most are still able to code up an acceptable solution to a more "realistic" in-person coding exercise we give them.