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> are claiming for some positive freedoms (I want to play with the women's team) Rowling wasn't arguing about sports teams. That argument is a canard and you

> are claiming for some positive freedoms (I want to play with the women's team) Rowling wasn't arguing about sports teams. That argument is a canard and you know it. Trans folks want to be treated as the people they are, and that's as far as it goes. And please forgive me for uncontrollable laughter that in a discussion of cancel culture where you clearly are being engaged constructively, you're choosing to disengage anyway... because downvotes. I can't imagine a better illustration of the kind of fake outrage that powers the current conservative freakout. You guys aren't worried about being "canceled", you just don't like being Wrong on the Internet[1]. [1] Yes, that's an xkcd reference.

rglullis 6y ago
I will have no qualms to admit being wrong about it. I actually wish to be wrong. It would make things so much simpler. You are right in one point, you are at least trying to keep a civil conversation. I still don't like the fact that you are hiding under a fake name and I surely don't like that this comment will end up at -2 no matter what I write, but you are engaging constructively so let me give a vote of confidence. > Rowling wasn't arguing about sports teams Navratilova was. Her argument was basically "if you grow up as a man and then do a sex change, you will have an unfair advantage over cis women. If more men decide to do that, you will be hurting cis women in sports". It was still construed as "hateful" and "transphobic". Martina Navratilova, gay activist, lost sponsorships and was plainly attacked for simply stating the obvious regarding the physiology of a trans woman [0]. Rowling saying about "there is a word for 'people who menstruate'" is also a call out for that. It is also a way to show that these attempts to declare that "trans women are women" may seem progressive at first but in the end lead to negate the most natural aspects of womanhood. It seems that progressives don't realize that wishing biology away does not make it reality. Saying "trans women are women" and labeling any one that disagrees or tries to bring any nuance to the argument does not help any cause and quite possibly damages other groups in the process. > Trans folks want to be treated as the people they are, and that's as far as it goes. “I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans. At the same time, my life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it’s hateful to say so.” How can anyone interpret this as mistreating or harming trans people is beyond me. Reading this and all the reactions regarding it, to call this transphobic seems way more than just "wanting to be treated as the people they are". Now, if you tell me that all of this is just a part of cultural wars, that all that is just activists trying to move the Overton window one way or another, I'd agree. If you want to be overly cynical and tell me that this is just corporate America exploiting the facts for clicks and that we are caught in the middle of the shouting, I'd agree even more. But don't tell me that this is just about "trans people wanting to be treated as the people they are", because I don't buy it. --- [0] I don't know if you know the story of Tiffany Abreu, trans volleyball player who was a professional male player on minor leagues and after a sex surgery went to be the top-record player in the women's league. Another player - Tandara, one of the gold-medalists with Brazil female volleyball team - gave a post-match interview where she says something along the lines of: "As much as we respect the human being, there is no denying that she is favored by growing up as a man. We can see that she holds back in the beginning of the game, but this just means that she can get to the decisive moments with more energy, when she doesn't hold back anymore. She gets to the end of the game with more stamina than anyone, she has higher Vo2 than any other woman, she can jump higher than any other on the league. She has more muscle fibers than we do. She had 30 years as a man to develop a man's body. She will always hit stronger than we do, no matter how much hormone control she is under. Personally we get along just fine, but we know that it's different with her". Was she "cancelled"? No. Were there other players saying that "she wasn't that different" and supportive of Tiffany? Sure. But in that interview Tandara spoke what was in the mind of most female volleyball players: trans-women athletes are leveraging their status as a way to dominate sports. Did the FIVB reviewed their position regarding trans players? No, definitely not.
AvocadoPanic 6y ago
Trans folks appear to want to be treated as the people they claim to be, and want others to participate in their delusion. To further their 'cause' they've attempted to twist the language to coincide with their delusion.
- newacct583 6y ago
  See, this is just sad. You've never known someone trans, have you? Never had a discussion about why people would choose this. Never had to think about things from someone wearing different shoes. It's the same insularity, the same language and the same twisted logic that led people to defend "gay conversion therapy", because homosexuality was a disease. Or segregation, because negro culture was inferior. Or anti-sufferage policies, because women were too emotional to make informed choices. Or slavery. After all these decades of being Wrong Every Time, I'd really think the bigots would have learned that when a class of people says to you "We want to be people and be treated like people without other people calling us delusional and denying our desires" ... that you'd maybe listen. Just for once. But no. Every time. Every disadvantaged population with needs becomes a Hill To Die On for the bigot.
  - AvocadoPanic 6y ago
    Because this new fad of 'trans' isn't a type of gay conversion? I have met trans people, I have a great deal of sympathy for them. It's apparent they're struggling with some very difficult issues. It's a shame there aren't better treatments available. Treatment options are lacking for a whole host of other mental disorders and psychogenic illness. Treating them like people doesn't require I share their in delusion or 'celebrate' whatever crazy is the zeitgeist. Women are often too emotional, but if we're going to let hysterical men vote there's not a good argument for not allowing women to vote too. African American culture is obviously inferior if we're measuring outcomes. Adherents of this particular culture experience poorer outcomes than cultures that are more consistent with the ideals of western civilization.

rglullis 6y ago

I will have no qualms to admit being wrong about it. I actually wish to be wrong. It would make things so much simpler. You are right in one point, you are at least trying to keep a civil conversation. I still don't like the fact that you are hiding under a fake name and I surely don't like that this comment will end up at -2 no matter what I write, but you are engaging constructively so let me give a vote of confidence. > Rowling wasn't arguing about sports teams Navratilova was. Her argument was basically "if you grow up as a man and then do a sex change, you will have an unfair advantage over cis women. If more men decide to do that, you will be hurting cis women in sports". It was still construed as "hateful" and "transphobic". Martina Navratilova, gay activist, lost sponsorships and was plainly attacked for simply stating the obvious regarding the physiology of a trans woman [0]. Rowling saying about "there is a word for 'people who menstruate'" is also a call out for that. It is also a way to show that these attempts to declare that "trans women are women" may seem progressive at first but in the end lead to negate the most natural aspects of womanhood. It seems that progressives don't realize that wishing biology away does not make it reality. Saying "trans women are women" and labeling any one that disagrees or tries to bring any nuance to the argument does not help any cause and quite possibly damages other groups in the process. > Trans folks want to be treated as the people they are, and that's as far as it goes. “I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans. At the same time, my life has been shaped by being female. I do not believe it’s hateful to say so.” How can anyone interpret this as mistreating or harming trans people is beyond me. Reading this and all the reactions regarding it, to call this transphobic seems way more than just "wanting to be treated as the people they are". Now, if you tell me that all of this is just a part of cultural wars, that all that is just activists trying to move the Overton window one way or another, I'd agree. If you want to be overly cynical and tell me that this is just corporate America exploiting the facts for clicks and that we are caught in the middle of the shouting, I'd agree even more. But don't tell me that this is just about "trans people wanting to be treated as the people they are", because I don't buy it. --- [0] I don't know if you know the story of Tiffany Abreu, trans volleyball player who was a professional male player on minor leagues and after a sex surgery went to be the top-record player in the women's league. Another player - Tandara, one of the gold-medalists with Brazil female volleyball team - gave a post-match interview where she says something along the lines of: "As much as we respect the human being, there is no denying that she is favored by growing up as a man. We can see that she holds back in the beginning of the game, but this just means that she can get to the decisive moments with more energy, when she doesn't hold back anymore. She gets to the end of the game with more stamina than anyone, she has higher Vo2 than any other woman, she can jump higher than any other on the league. She has more muscle fibers than we do. She had 30 years as a man to develop a man's body. She will always hit stronger than we do, no matter how much hormone control she is under. Personally we get along just fine, but we know that it's different with her". Was she "cancelled"? No. Were there other players saying that "she wasn't that different" and supportive of Tiffany? Sure. But in that interview Tandara spoke what was in the mind of most female volleyball players: trans-women athletes are leveraging their status as a way to dominate sports. Did the FIVB reviewed their position regarding trans players? No, definitely not.

AvocadoPanic 6y ago

Trans folks appear to want to be treated as the people they claim to be, and want others to participate in their delusion. To further their 'cause' they've attempted to twist the language to coincide with their delusion.

newacct583 6y ago
See, this is just sad. You've never known someone trans, have you? Never had a discussion about why people would choose this. Never had to think about things from someone wearing different shoes. It's the same insularity, the same language and the same twisted logic that led people to defend "gay conversion therapy", because homosexuality was a disease. Or segregation, because negro culture was inferior. Or anti-sufferage policies, because women were too emotional to make informed choices. Or slavery. After all these decades of being Wrong Every Time, I'd really think the bigots would have learned that when a class of people says to you "We want to be people and be treated like people without other people calling us delusional and denying our desires" ... that you'd maybe listen. Just for once. But no. Every time. Every disadvantaged population with needs becomes a Hill To Die On for the bigot.
- AvocadoPanic 6y ago
  Because this new fad of 'trans' isn't a type of gay conversion? I have met trans people, I have a great deal of sympathy for them. It's apparent they're struggling with some very difficult issues. It's a shame there aren't better treatments available. Treatment options are lacking for a whole host of other mental disorders and psychogenic illness. Treating them like people doesn't require I share their in delusion or 'celebrate' whatever crazy is the zeitgeist. Women are often too emotional, but if we're going to let hysterical men vote there's not a good argument for not allowing women to vote too. African American culture is obviously inferior if we're measuring outcomes. Adherents of this particular culture experience poorer outcomes than cultures that are more consistent with the ideals of western civilization.