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> The dirty secret of video codecs is that you can't make a modern video codec that isn't patent encumbered The existence of Theora, VP8, VP9, and now AV1 seem
by cyphar 6y ago
> The dirty secret of video codecs is that you can't make a modern video codec that isn't patent encumbered
The existence of Theora, VP8, VP9, and now AV1 seems to contradict that theory.
You could argue that they infringe on some unknown patents, but that is also arguably true of patent cabals like MPEG (you just hope that the cabal is big enough that there aren't any patentholders lurking outside). The only difference is that with a patent cabal you have the fun of having to obey the restrictions of everyone who showed up with a possibly-related-in-some-way patent and joined the cabal.
Not to mention that it isn't necessary for a patent pool to be a cabal. AOMedia has a similar structure to a patent cabal except it doesn't act like a cabal (its patent pool is royalty-free in the style of the W3C). So even if the argument is that a patent pool is a good idea (and video codecs cannot be developed without them), there isn't a justification behind turning the patent pool into a cabal.
> At least the patent licenses usually used with MPEG mean that private use of open source implementations is free.
You say that, but there's a reason why some distributions (openSUSE for one) still can't ship x264 (even though the code itself is free software). Not to mention the need for Cisco's OpenH264 in Firefox (which you cannot recompile or modify otherwise you lose the patent rights to use it). The existence of the MPEG patent cabal isn't a good thing, and any minor concessions you get from them do not justify their actions.
- mtgx 6y ago> but that is also arguably true of patent cabals like MPEG (you just hope that the cabal is big enough that there aren't any patentholders lurking outside) Apparently, they aren't. There are at least 2 other patent pools that claim patents for HEVC, and I think I saw 3 in some other article before: https://streaminglearningcenter.com/codecs/hevc-ip-mess-worse-think.html https://streaminglearningcenter.com/codecs/hevc-ip-mess-wors...
- p_l 6y agoAs others mentioned, VP8, VP9 and AV1 all are patent encumbered - they just happen to have licenses that are royalty-free and as someone mentioned, include retaliation clauses which help fighting off submarine patents - but that's essentially a possibly high-stakes game of chicken.
- cyphar 6y agoWhile they are patent-encumbered in the strictest sense of the word, they are not as aggressively licensed as H.266 -- which is what GP was lamenting. Licensing H.266 under the GPL(v3) wouldn't erase the existence of the patents and it would still be "patent-encumbered" in the same sense that VP8/9 and AV1 are. And retaliation clauses are present in basically every free software license that has clauses dealing with patents (including Apache-2.0).
- p_l 6y agoA big part is in how expensive can you make said retaliation. I'm more and more fond of calling it all a big game of chicken, a MAD without nukes,
- craftinator 6y agoHah I love this analogy! Guess that's societal progress for you; we use currency to replace munitions.
- RBURBURXEIVG3KO 6y agoWouldn't Apache 2 be a better license for this since it is explicit on patents?
- cyphar 6y agoGPL is the example GP used, which is why I referenced it. It's not really important what free software license it would be (though GPLv3 does have an entire section (s11) which is all about patents -- that's why it's compatible with Apache-2.0).
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y agoYeah. It's a mess. The video patents aren't just "patent troll" patents, either. They are highly enforceable, and were registered by corporations like Ampex. I have been trying to write a simple app to stream RTSP (security cameras), and that has been a pain. I need to basically use either proprietary (paid) or GPL software to do it. Video software is not for the faint of heart. Much as I grouse about the licensing, I am not about to develop my own codec. I did write this one app, which is an ffmpeg wrapper, to convert RTSP to HLS (Which is not -currently- suitable for realtime streaming): https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_MediaServer https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_MediaServer It's GPL, because I need to use the GPL ffmpeg H.264 codec.
- striking 6y agoYou can license x264 to not have to worry about the GPL. Though that costs money and you may find yourself signing MPEG LA contracts. edit: Your project reminds me, https://github.com/arut/nginx-rtmp-module https://github.com/arut/nginx-rtmp-module is super worth checking out and might be helpful to you.
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y agoYeah, but it was a free app. One of the frustrating things about implementing video software, even licensing it, is pretty much everything out there is an expression of ffmpeg, which is a really, really good system, but does have some baggage.
- iso1631 6y ago> I need to basically use either proprietary (paid) or GPL software to do it. > It's GPL, because I need to use the GPL ffmpeg H.264 codec. I don't understand the problem? I can see the problem with people patenting things and preventing you from writing your own implementation, but it seems you just want other people to do the hard work of implementing it so you can wrap a skin around it and do what?
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago