5 ms·

Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40

by wiz21c 6y ago

Dunno if it's a valid comparison, but my kid races indoor karting. He's average level, that means he's within 1.5% of the best in race conditions (i.e. on a 40 seconds lap, he's about than 0.7 seconds behind the best on average). And given the time it took to reach that, I'd say that being a competitive pilot may be just 10% of the victory, but those 10% are super tough to reach.

bborud 6y ago
I think you are pointing to something very important. The car and team get you 90% of the way. But the last 10% is almost 100% up to the driver.
- mrslave 6y ago
  Reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote: > Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical.
emerongi 6y ago
I've been doing a bit of karting lately and the difference between a 58s and a 59s lap is crazy. Super hard to shave that second off, but it's also so obvious that the guy doing 58s laps is way faster. Last year there was a hobbyist race on my local track and the person who won it was a guy who mainly practices at home on his computer. I imagine a gokart simulation is close enough to the real deal that training on it actually can help a lot. You can get much more fine-grained feedback on how well you're taking certain corners etc. One thing that trips me up is understanding the kart - my local ones have somewhat poor acceleration, so it seems it's not actually best to take the corners as sharp as possible and try to accelerate out of the corner, but instead try to maintain as much speed as possible going into the corner, even if you end up on a bad line. This would be easy to test in a simulation, but I just have to go by gut feeling.
- wiz21c 6y ago
  The 1st rule we've learned is : you look all over the place, not just the kart in front of you. The 2nd rule we've learned is : no skidding, never. That's really hard to do. But look at top pilots, they don't skid. The 3d rule is : you do your best time on every single lap (super good pilots do almost the same time on most of their laps, within 0.3 sec range; it's hard to believe they do it, but they do !). 4th rule : figure out the best trajectory. According to my kid's teacher it's a question of 10 centimeters here or there (good luck figuring that out !). Strangely, passing a car is the last thing you learn. But in retrospect,it's normal : most of the time you run after the one in front of you. The opportunities to pass another pilot are rare (most of the time you're much faster so the blue flags forces them to let you pass). As a dad, I'd say : find a good teacher, it makes a big difference.
  - lowestprimate 6y ago
    I knew a bunch of Indy car drivers and they could visualize a road course lap in their head down to 0.3 repeatably.
- jdhawk 6y ago
  how much do you weigh compared to the top drivers.
  - olyjohn 6y ago
    I don't think that matters as much as you might think. We have 3 race classes at our local track. The Pro guys (top level) are easily 1-2 seconds above the Pro-am guys (mid-level). Some of these pros are not exactly lightweights and are considerably above the minimum weight. Yet they manage to slaughter everybody else out there. You would think they had a disadvantage to the people who are running the baseline weight in the kart, but you sure can't tell it.
  - emerongi 6y ago
    The very top drivers (1.5s faster than me) are probably around my weight, I'm ~70kg. There are heavier guys who are doing 1s faster laps than me.
otherme123 6y ago
Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid is allowed to enter the race with an expensive kart that makes 10% more power, has 10% more grip and overall gives the driver a "free" 1.5 seconds per lap. Suddenly an average driver can crush a top notch driver every time. Because that's F1. There's not a balance driver/car. There are good cars, average cars and poor cars, almost all of them driven by good drivers. In karting (and many formula cathegories) the reverse scenario is true: there are good drivers, average drivers and bad drivers, all driving similar karts.
- leokennis 6y ago
  So then I would like your prediction on who would become WDC: * Hamilton/Verstappen in a Williams? * Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes? Don't forget the classic "to finish first, you first have to finish"...a drivers skill is not just better reaction time or better peripheral vision, it's also mental calm, not making stupid mistakes on lap 69 of 70, situational awareness etc.
  - rguillebert 6y ago
    Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes for sure.
- wiz21c 6y ago
  >>> Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid Indoor kart racing is, in my country, affordable to, say 50% of population (you may have to make some choices though). Count +/-120€ per month (2 training session + 1 race). Swimming lessons are 30€ per month I'd say. Outdoor karting is really expensive and is for the 1% (which I'm not part of :-)). Count 1000€ per race, gasp ! F1 is well, for ultra rich :-) Plan robbing 1 bank, or 10 (binary joke intended). But according to many, indoor karts makes you a great pilot because the machine doesn't compensate for your failures.
  - tashoecraft 6y ago
    I have family that do outdoor karting, and they are learning just how expensive it gets. They are certainly not the 1%, and are actually considering switching their kid to spec miata as running a actual car is cheaper than karting. The kids they race against are sons (almost entirely sons) of ex f1 drivers, leading political figures of nations, and ultra wealthy. And this is all US based karting which has no segway into f1. It's truly a 1% sport, you either need to be ultra wealthy or very quickly get supported by someone with that level of wealth.
leokennis 6y ago
I have occasionally (and very recreationally) raced on track days. I do not know kart racing well, but even in a relatively slow (15 year old BMW) car, it's incredibly scary to race towards a brick wall at ~180 km/h and only brake at the last moment. So I think that 10% is a lot of skill and dedication, but also a sort of numbing to that fear.
- LandR 6y ago
  I've done a lot of track days. You realise how big the skill gap is between an average person like me and a proper fast driver. I've occasionally gone into a corner way faster than I should with my abilities, frightened myself, but the car has stuck to the track. It made the corner. I couldn't do this intentionally, even knowing that I can throw it into the corner x mph faster than I'm comfortable with and I will come out the other end pointing in the right direction, I still can't do it. Then you realise that if I gave my car to a racing driver, he would drive it like that in every corner of every lap. Because he has to, because if he doesn't he's giving away time. It blows my mind. My limit for how fast I can drive a car is so much lower than even an average road cars physical limits.
  - 2almalki 6y ago
    Agreed, I'm much more at the limit of the kart for every corner. If i crash, its not much $ out of my pocket. The value of the car is always at the back of my head when doing track days - even when its relatively "cheap", and thus I am slower. It take me much much longer to get up to the limit on the car :/

by wiz21c 6y ago

bborud 6y ago

I think you are pointing to something very important. The car and team get you 90% of the way. But the last 10% is almost 100% up to the driver.

mrslave 6y ago
Reminds me of a Yogi Berra quote: > Baseball is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical.

emerongi 6y ago

I've been doing a bit of karting lately and the difference between a 58s and a 59s lap is crazy. Super hard to shave that second off, but it's also so obvious that the guy doing 58s laps is way faster. Last year there was a hobbyist race on my local track and the person who won it was a guy who mainly practices at home on his computer. I imagine a gokart simulation is close enough to the real deal that training on it actually can help a lot. You can get much more fine-grained feedback on how well you're taking certain corners etc. One thing that trips me up is understanding the kart - my local ones have somewhat poor acceleration, so it seems it's not actually best to take the corners as sharp as possible and try to accelerate out of the corner, but instead try to maintain as much speed as possible going into the corner, even if you end up on a bad line. This would be easy to test in a simulation, but I just have to go by gut feeling.

wiz21c 6y ago
The 1st rule we've learned is : you look all over the place, not just the kart in front of you. The 2nd rule we've learned is : no skidding, never. That's really hard to do. But look at top pilots, they don't skid. The 3d rule is : you do your best time on every single lap (super good pilots do almost the same time on most of their laps, within 0.3 sec range; it's hard to believe they do it, but they do !). 4th rule : figure out the best trajectory. According to my kid's teacher it's a question of 10 centimeters here or there (good luck figuring that out !). Strangely, passing a car is the last thing you learn. But in retrospect,it's normal : most of the time you run after the one in front of you. The opportunities to pass another pilot are rare (most of the time you're much faster so the blue flags forces them to let you pass). As a dad, I'd say : find a good teacher, it makes a big difference.
- lowestprimate 6y ago
  I knew a bunch of Indy car drivers and they could visualize a road course lap in their head down to 0.3 repeatably.
jdhawk 6y ago
how much do you weigh compared to the top drivers.
- olyjohn 6y ago
  I don't think that matters as much as you might think. We have 3 race classes at our local track. The Pro guys (top level) are easily 1-2 seconds above the Pro-am guys (mid-level). Some of these pros are not exactly lightweights and are considerably above the minimum weight. Yet they manage to slaughter everybody else out there. You would think they had a disadvantage to the people who are running the baseline weight in the kart, but you sure can't tell it.
- emerongi 6y ago
  The very top drivers (1.5s faster than me) are probably around my weight, I'm ~70kg. There are heavier guys who are doing 1s faster laps than me.

otherme123 6y ago

Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid is allowed to enter the race with an expensive kart that makes 10% more power, has 10% more grip and overall gives the driver a "free" 1.5 seconds per lap. Suddenly an average driver can crush a top notch driver every time. Because that's F1. There's not a balance driver/car. There are good cars, average cars and poor cars, almost all of them driven by good drivers. In karting (and many formula cathegories) the reverse scenario is true: there are good drivers, average drivers and bad drivers, all driving similar karts.

leokennis 6y ago
So then I would like your prediction on who would become WDC: * Hamilton/Verstappen in a Williams? * Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes? Don't forget the classic "to finish first, you first have to finish"...a drivers skill is not just better reaction time or better peripheral vision, it's also mental calm, not making stupid mistakes on lap 69 of 70, situational awareness etc.
- rguillebert 6y ago
  Antonio Giovinazzi in a Mercedes for sure.
wiz21c 6y ago
>>> Now imagine that the wealthy father of another average level kid Indoor kart racing is, in my country, affordable to, say 50% of population (you may have to make some choices though). Count +/-120€ per month (2 training session + 1 race). Swimming lessons are 30€ per month I'd say. Outdoor karting is really expensive and is for the 1% (which I'm not part of :-)). Count 1000€ per race, gasp ! F1 is well, for ultra rich :-) Plan robbing 1 bank, or 10 (binary joke intended). But according to many, indoor karts makes you a great pilot because the machine doesn't compensate for your failures.
- tashoecraft 6y ago
  I have family that do outdoor karting, and they are learning just how expensive it gets. They are certainly not the 1%, and are actually considering switching their kid to spec miata as running a actual car is cheaper than karting. The kids they race against are sons (almost entirely sons) of ex f1 drivers, leading political figures of nations, and ultra wealthy. And this is all US based karting which has no segway into f1. It's truly a 1% sport, you either need to be ultra wealthy or very quickly get supported by someone with that level of wealth.

leokennis 6y ago

I have occasionally (and very recreationally) raced on track days. I do not know kart racing well, but even in a relatively slow (15 year old BMW) car, it's incredibly scary to race towards a brick wall at ~180 km/h and only brake at the last moment. So I think that 10% is a lot of skill and dedication, but also a sort of numbing to that fear.

LandR 6y ago
I've done a lot of track days. You realise how big the skill gap is between an average person like me and a proper fast driver. I've occasionally gone into a corner way faster than I should with my abilities, frightened myself, but the car has stuck to the track. It made the corner. I couldn't do this intentionally, even knowing that I can throw it into the corner x mph faster than I'm comfortable with and I will come out the other end pointing in the right direction, I still can't do it. Then you realise that if I gave my car to a racing driver, he would drive it like that in every corner of every lap. Because he has to, because if he doesn't he's giving away time. It blows my mind. My limit for how fast I can drive a car is so much lower than even an average road cars physical limits.
- 2almalki 6y ago
  Agreed, I'm much more at the limit of the kart for every corner. If i crash, its not much $ out of my pocket. The value of the car is always at the back of my head when doing track days - even when its relatively "cheap", and thus I am slower. It take me much much longer to get up to the limit on the car :/