14 ms·

The balance of importance between driver and constructor is quite unique in sport. A sufficiently good car can make an average driver competitive (e.g. Bottas),

The balance of importance between driver and constructor is quite unique in sport. A sufficiently good car can make an average driver competitive (e.g. Bottas), but also a sufficiently good driver can make an average car competitive (e.g. Schumacher). Plus everyone involved is such a drama merchant (or crook!) that the season often plays out like a soap opera.

AmericanChopper 6y ago
It’s also the balance that the FIA has never managed to maintain to anybody’s satisfaction. A lot of the issues with F1 stem from the fact that it’s actually two seperate competitions. If you let constructors build the fastest car that they safely can, then two bad things happen. Firstly, the fastest car will win. Secondly, the teams with less money can’t compete. The F1 brand is about having the most technologically advanced cars, but really it has to constantly hold the best teams back in order to keep things competitive. That’s why the regulations are so hopelessly complex (this years new regulations have to cover up the holes in last years poor regulating...), and it’s why anything that is truly innovative is nearly always instantly banned. F1 is constantly swinging between a state of dominant constructors (Mercedes the past 6 years), and being more like a spec series (the new 2021 regs). If F1 wanted to actually live up to its brand, it would let the constructors build mostly whatever they wanted to. But if it did that, it would also have to divvy up the prize money more fairly to keep the lesser teams from going under, which it’s never going to do because of how political it all is.
- dyyni 6y ago
  A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.
  - pmontra 6y ago
    I'd go with something more radical: a 2x5 meters max box, 100 kg of gas for the 300 km race, 600 kg minimum weight, 50 million budget maybe including the drivers (there is a very long line of them) and maybe a max downforce test if it can be made hard to cheat. Then let the teams do whatever they want. Somebody will optimize for the engine, somebody for the aerodynamics, somebody for the suspensions, somebody for the tires (buy them from whoever they want) etc. I guess very few will spend much on the driver. At the beginning they'll be slower than the current cars (which are only marginally faster than the v10s of 2004) but year after year they'll improve new areas of the design and get fast again. I expect a lot of technical drama and very different solutions. It's going to be back to the 70x and 80s with today's technology and processes.
    - ethbro 6y ago
      It could definitely be managed better, to optimize for what they seem to be trying to (sport + performance). Budget caps seems like a cop-out though, as eventually the budgetary rules inherit all the complexity in the current technical rules. I think some kind of FRAND forced tech licensing / transfer + shared manufacturing would be an interesting solution. Whereby a hyper-optimized solution by a leading team can be licenses (or is outright open sourced) for the next season. And similarly, where all builders have access to a neutral manufacturing facility (a la TSMC).
      - raverbashing 6y ago
        There is something like that in the engine market where some teams are customers of other teams (usually with last year's engine)
        AmericanChopper 6y ago
        Customer teams get exactly the same engine that the works team uses. The reason they don’t perform as well is that they still have to design the rest of their car (which includes a lot of performance impacting design), and they also may have to modify the engine to fit it in their chassis.
wastedhours 6y ago
After spending years trying to put myself in a position to work in the sport, now I mostly just follow F1 for the politics and gamesmanship more than the racing itself. There are much more fun motorsports to watch, but rarely do they come so packaged with intriguing technical drama.
- C1sc0cat 6y ago
  A few years ago I did a spec Job application to RBR racing I wasn't cheeky enough to mention the two DNF's (ran out of fuel) they had had the previous season, and how as a former Research Assistant / Experimental officer at a world leading hydro dynamics RnD org - I would have at least made sure the second one did not happen
  - sabas123 6y ago
    How are you so sure that you would have succeeded when they didn't?
    - C1sc0cat 6y ago
      I would have identified the issue and put plans in place to make sure it didn't happen the second time - any idea how much a DNF costs a top F1 team? I worked on Campus at Cranfield Uni (close to RB and Maclarren) At a tier 1 research organisation in hydrodynamics, there was one US lab that was working at our level. I worked on research projects and managing out risk like this is a big aspect of the work. If the materials for a single run of an experiment cost as much as for a small flat you take great care not to fuckup or at least not to make the same mistake twice I also did a niche specialised Vocational Course in thermofields basically to support military /aerospace.
  - Enginerrrd 6y ago
    Were I an interviewer, I think I would have actually really liked that one. It demonstrates real understanding of how human mistakes get made and prevented.
otherme123 6y ago
The balance is probably around 90% the car and 10% the driver. In the years of RB dominance, a subpar driver like Webber almost got the championship. OTOH Alonso lost a decade in Ferrari and McLaren while being, tied with Hamilton, the best driver in the grid. The 10% of what the driver adds to the mix is what makes Hamilton champion instead of Bottas.
- eaurouge 6y ago
  The ratio varies - I would say it depends on the car, teammates and team. But ultimately driver skill is what determines who gets to drive for Mercedes, Ferrari etc. So once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams or leaving F1 all together.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams That's not always the case. Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money. He was pretty spectacular on good days but nowhere as good as The Michael.
    - eaurouge 6y ago
      Right. The current era is definitely more competitive than past eras. Teams were often cash strapped back then, so sponsorship money trumped driver skill in some teams. Also Ferrari was very much Schumacher’s team. Irvine was his supporting driver much more than a true teammate, unlike what we have these days in most teams, including at Mercedes and Red Bull.
      - faichai 6y ago
        Teams are still cash strapped!
    - paublyrne 6y ago
      > Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money I think you mean Jaguar. He moved from Jordan to Ferrari.
BadOakOx 6y ago
Chain Bear uploaded a video just a few days back where he analysis this: [What's more important: The Driver or the car?] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMN0oB0Waqw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMN0oB0Waqw
kkotak 6y ago
I wouldn't call Bottas an average driver. His temperament and consistency of top performance is commendable. He has played second fiddle to Lewis for a long time, which is a shame. The car does give him an edge but I would bet most teams would hire him in a flash if he decides to shop around.

AmericanChopper 6y ago

It’s also the balance that the FIA has never managed to maintain to anybody’s satisfaction. A lot of the issues with F1 stem from the fact that it’s actually two seperate competitions. If you let constructors build the fastest car that they safely can, then two bad things happen. Firstly, the fastest car will win. Secondly, the teams with less money can’t compete. The F1 brand is about having the most technologically advanced cars, but really it has to constantly hold the best teams back in order to keep things competitive. That’s why the regulations are so hopelessly complex (this years new regulations have to cover up the holes in last years poor regulating...), and it’s why anything that is truly innovative is nearly always instantly banned. F1 is constantly swinging between a state of dominant constructors (Mercedes the past 6 years), and being more like a spec series (the new 2021 regs). If F1 wanted to actually live up to its brand, it would let the constructors build mostly whatever they wanted to. But if it did that, it would also have to divvy up the prize money more fairly to keep the lesser teams from going under, which it’s never going to do because of how political it all is.

dyyni 6y ago
A budget cap is one solution to keep design regulations to a minimum and ensure that smaller teams can compete. F1 introduced a $145 million budget cap for the 2021 season, going down to $135 million for 2023-25 seasons. Right now the three biggest teams (MB, Ferrari, Red Bull) spend somewhere around half a billion or so per season.
- pmontra 6y ago
  I'd go with something more radical: a 2x5 meters max box, 100 kg of gas for the 300 km race, 600 kg minimum weight, 50 million budget maybe including the drivers (there is a very long line of them) and maybe a max downforce test if it can be made hard to cheat. Then let the teams do whatever they want. Somebody will optimize for the engine, somebody for the aerodynamics, somebody for the suspensions, somebody for the tires (buy them from whoever they want) etc. I guess very few will spend much on the driver. At the beginning they'll be slower than the current cars (which are only marginally faster than the v10s of 2004) but year after year they'll improve new areas of the design and get fast again. I expect a lot of technical drama and very different solutions. It's going to be back to the 70x and 80s with today's technology and processes.
  - ethbro 6y ago
    It could definitely be managed better, to optimize for what they seem to be trying to (sport + performance). Budget caps seems like a cop-out though, as eventually the budgetary rules inherit all the complexity in the current technical rules. I think some kind of FRAND forced tech licensing / transfer + shared manufacturing would be an interesting solution. Whereby a hyper-optimized solution by a leading team can be licenses (or is outright open sourced) for the next season. And similarly, where all builders have access to a neutral manufacturing facility (a la TSMC).
    - raverbashing 6y ago
      There is something like that in the engine market where some teams are customers of other teams (usually with last year's engine)
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        Customer teams get exactly the same engine that the works team uses. The reason they don’t perform as well is that they still have to design the rest of their car (which includes a lot of performance impacting design), and they also may have to modify the engine to fit it in their chassis.

wastedhours 6y ago

After spending years trying to put myself in a position to work in the sport, now I mostly just follow F1 for the politics and gamesmanship more than the racing itself. There are much more fun motorsports to watch, but rarely do they come so packaged with intriguing technical drama.

C1sc0cat 6y ago
A few years ago I did a spec Job application to RBR racing I wasn't cheeky enough to mention the two DNF's (ran out of fuel) they had had the previous season, and how as a former Research Assistant / Experimental officer at a world leading hydro dynamics RnD org - I would have at least made sure the second one did not happen
- sabas123 6y ago
  How are you so sure that you would have succeeded when they didn't?
  - C1sc0cat 6y ago
    I would have identified the issue and put plans in place to make sure it didn't happen the second time - any idea how much a DNF costs a top F1 team? I worked on Campus at Cranfield Uni (close to RB and Maclarren) At a tier 1 research organisation in hydrodynamics, there was one US lab that was working at our level. I worked on research projects and managing out risk like this is a big aspect of the work. If the materials for a single run of an experiment cost as much as for a small flat you take great care not to fuckup or at least not to make the same mistake twice I also did a niche specialised Vocational Course in thermofields basically to support military /aerospace.
- Enginerrrd 6y ago
  Were I an interviewer, I think I would have actually really liked that one. It demonstrates real understanding of how human mistakes get made and prevented.

otherme123 6y ago

The balance is probably around 90% the car and 10% the driver. In the years of RB dominance, a subpar driver like Webber almost got the championship. OTOH Alonso lost a decade in Ferrari and McLaren while being, tied with Hamilton, the best driver in the grid. The 10% of what the driver adds to the mix is what makes Hamilton champion instead of Bottas.

eaurouge 6y ago
The ratio varies - I would say it depends on the car, teammates and team. But ultimately driver skill is what determines who gets to drive for Mercedes, Ferrari etc. So once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams or leaving F1 all together.
- toyg 6y ago
  > once a pairing has been made, either the drivers are closely matched, or one or both will be changing teams That's not always the case. Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money. He was pretty spectacular on good days but nowhere as good as The Michael.
  - eaurouge 6y ago
    Right. The current era is definitely more competitive than past eras. Teams were often cash strapped back then, so sponsorship money trumped driver skill in some teams. Also Ferrari was very much Schumacher’s team. Irvine was his supporting driver much more than a true teammate, unlike what we have these days in most teams, including at Mercedes and Red Bull.
    - faichai 6y ago
      Teams are still cash strapped!
  - paublyrne 6y ago
    > Eddie Irvine spent 4 years as n.2 to Schumacher pretty happily, only changing teams because Jordan offered more money I think you mean Jaguar. He moved from Jordan to Ferrari.

BadOakOx 6y ago

Chain Bear uploaded a video just a few days back where he analysis this: [What's more important: The Driver or the car?] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMN0oB0Waqw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMN0oB0Waqw

kkotak 6y ago

I wouldn't call Bottas an average driver. His temperament and consistency of top performance is commendable. He has played second fiddle to Lewis for a long time, which is a shame. The car does give him an edge but I would bet most teams would hire him in a flash if he decides to shop around.