4 ms·

"Self promotion works" i do not believe this one. If you are any good, you do not need to talk yourself up, as others will do it for you.

nostrademons 16y ago
You have to be really good for others to do it for you. In general, people's attention is focused on themselves. It's pretty rare for someone to talk you up unless they were really impressed by you. That's why it counts for so much when they do. I suspect (actually, I'm pretty sure of it) that self-promoters do better than the average person, and it's only when you're much, much better than average (multiple standard deviations away) that you can get away with letting your accomplishments speak for themselves.
- blacksmythe 16y ago
  >> (actually, I'm pretty sure of it) that self-promoters do better than the average person This is certainly true. If you look at a group of well-known people, the percentage that put a lot of effort into self-promotion is much, much higher than in the general population. In many cases self-promotion seems to be their main strength.
patio11 16y ago
This is difficult to square with the evidence. Many good people, for any definition of good, are not talked about. Many people who are talked about have no externally verifiable accomplishment which would point to them being good, aside from being talked about. I have a bit of the engineer skepticism about self-promotion, but to the extent that I have a positive reputation that continues to open doors for me, it is partially because I'm talented and largely because I have worked hard and effectively for years at marketing myself. (Only partially consciously at points. It turns out that helping people and writing well are both really effective methods of self-promotion.)
- tomjen3 16y ago
  helping people is always a good thing, but the troubble with good writting is that there is no good way to get better. Once you have mastered spelling and grammar, it is very difficult to improv. A better tactic may be to write tolerably and have someting interesting to say.
  - nostrademons 16y ago
    That's not true at all. There's wide variation on the quality of writers even if you restrict yourself only to those who can spell and use correct grammar. Things like word choice, omitting adverbs and filler, sentence length, organization into paragraphs, structure of the piece, transitions, use of formatting, and supporting details all make for noticeable differences in how easy it is to read. Saying "there's no way to get better" is like saying "once you learn the syntax of Java, you know everything there is to know about programming." It just belies your ignorance of how much else there is to know.
    - tomjen3 16y ago
      I said there is no good way to get better, by which I mean a way that you can objectively measure whether what you are doing today is better than what you were doing yesterday and most crucially of all: what you need to improve. You can do that with programming since each choice you make gives a tradeof in terms of speed, complexity, etc. I haven't seen a book with a similar set of concerns with regards to writing.
      - nostrademons 16y ago
        If you define "good" as "can be objectively measured", you've cut out most of the interesting problems. Data is a tool, not a crutch. If you write UI software, how do you know that you're getting better? You can use A/B testing, sure; but how do you decide which metrics to use? Ultimately, it comes down to taste: you look at one possible approach, you look at the other, you give them both an honest appraisal, and then you say "I like the first version better." It's the same thing with writing. Write a sentence. Now rewrite it, removing superfluous words or changing the phrasing or breaking it in two. Which one did you like better? What's different about it? That's how you improve. As for their being no books - pish posh, there're plenty of books on improving your writing skills. The Elements of Fiction Writing is one such series. I've heard Steven King's On Writing is also quite good. The best way, however, is to sit down with an experienced writer and have them critique your work. Failing that, you could always go look at Paul Graham's Etherpad recordings of his writing process and see what he does.
taphangum 16y ago
Two words. Paris. Hilton
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Doesn't count. A hot girl with a sex tape will always be talked about, unfortunately that is not the case for us men.
Mz 16y ago
I'm really, really good at a few things. My experience is that this causes people to think I am a teller of tall tales. And, no, I haven't found that others do a lot of promoting me for me. I am still trying to figure out what would effectively promote my projects. Simply setting the bar really high isn't by itself getting there. (My personal situation is complicated, but, no my experience does not square with "if you are good enough, others will just do it for you".)
- maxklein 16y ago
  You need a simple hook that you repeat over and over again.
  - Mz 16y ago
    Like what? "Michele: The Awesome"? (Not entirely kidding. "Awesome" is a word that has been applied to me repeatedly by some folks but I find that other folks really just think I have a huge ego and am all talk. I have never found a direct way around this. It just takes time to prove stuff that others think is 'too good to be true'.)
    - jongraehl 16y ago
      Think about how you appear to others. Pick your battles. Don't seem like you need to impress.
sid6376 16y ago
"If you are any good, you do not need to talk yourself up" I think it's more If you are any good, your work will do the talking for you. Its still upto you to promote your work.
beaumartinez 16y ago
At home I am a nice guy: but I don't want the world to know. Humble people, I've found, don't get very far. —Muhammad Ali
- mtran 16y ago
  Really tough lesson to learn, and especially so for women. Fred Wilson recently posted an interview of his wife on AVC.com. When asked about one piece of advice she would give female entrepreneurs, Joanne said something like, "Learn to stand on the table and say "I rock"." Great advice for all of us, I think!
kabdib 16y ago
> If you are any good, you do not need to talk yourself up, as others will do it for you No. Do not depend on people to do this for you. I've made this mistake. A few years ago I had a series of weak and bad managers; the review process where I work involves a "stack ranking" system where managers go to bat for you and people are ordered. (I know, it sucks. I don't have control over that, and aside from this I rather like where i work). Weak manager = bad review. You get ranked low and a review is customized for that. Depending on your environment, self promotion is survival. If you are in a tank with sharks, you do not want to be a tuna.

nostrademons 16y ago

You have to be really good for others to do it for you. In general, people's attention is focused on themselves. It's pretty rare for someone to talk you up unless they were really impressed by you. That's why it counts for so much when they do. I suspect (actually, I'm pretty sure of it) that self-promoters do better than the average person, and it's only when you're much, much better than average (multiple standard deviations away) that you can get away with letting your accomplishments speak for themselves.

blacksmythe 16y ago
>> (actually, I'm pretty sure of it) that self-promoters do better than the average person This is certainly true. If you look at a group of well-known people, the percentage that put a lot of effort into self-promotion is much, much higher than in the general population. In many cases self-promotion seems to be their main strength.

patio11 16y ago

This is difficult to square with the evidence. Many good people, for any definition of good, are not talked about. Many people who are talked about have no externally verifiable accomplishment which would point to them being good, aside from being talked about. I have a bit of the engineer skepticism about self-promotion, but to the extent that I have a positive reputation that continues to open doors for me, it is partially because I'm talented and largely because I have worked hard and effectively for years at marketing myself. (Only partially consciously at points. It turns out that helping people and writing well are both really effective methods of self-promotion.)

tomjen3 16y ago
helping people is always a good thing, but the troubble with good writting is that there is no good way to get better. Once you have mastered spelling and grammar, it is very difficult to improv. A better tactic may be to write tolerably and have someting interesting to say.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  That's not true at all. There's wide variation on the quality of writers even if you restrict yourself only to those who can spell and use correct grammar. Things like word choice, omitting adverbs and filler, sentence length, organization into paragraphs, structure of the piece, transitions, use of formatting, and supporting details all make for noticeable differences in how easy it is to read. Saying "there's no way to get better" is like saying "once you learn the syntax of Java, you know everything there is to know about programming." It just belies your ignorance of how much else there is to know.
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    I said there is no good way to get better, by which I mean a way that you can objectively measure whether what you are doing today is better than what you were doing yesterday and most crucially of all: what you need to improve. You can do that with programming since each choice you make gives a tradeof in terms of speed, complexity, etc. I haven't seen a book with a similar set of concerns with regards to writing.
    - nostrademons 16y ago
      If you define "good" as "can be objectively measured", you've cut out most of the interesting problems. Data is a tool, not a crutch. If you write UI software, how do you know that you're getting better? You can use A/B testing, sure; but how do you decide which metrics to use? Ultimately, it comes down to taste: you look at one possible approach, you look at the other, you give them both an honest appraisal, and then you say "I like the first version better." It's the same thing with writing. Write a sentence. Now rewrite it, removing superfluous words or changing the phrasing or breaking it in two. Which one did you like better? What's different about it? That's how you improve. As for their being no books - pish posh, there're plenty of books on improving your writing skills. The Elements of Fiction Writing is one such series. I've heard Steven King's On Writing is also quite good. The best way, however, is to sit down with an experienced writer and have them critique your work. Failing that, you could always go look at Paul Graham's Etherpad recordings of his writing process and see what he does.

taphangum 16y ago

Two words. Paris. Hilton

tomjen3 16y ago
Doesn't count. A hot girl with a sex tape will always be talked about, unfortunately that is not the case for us men.

Mz 16y ago

I'm really, really good at a few things. My experience is that this causes people to think I am a teller of tall tales. And, no, I haven't found that others do a lot of promoting me for me. I am still trying to figure out what would effectively promote my projects. Simply setting the bar really high isn't by itself getting there. (My personal situation is complicated, but, no my experience does not square with "if you are good enough, others will just do it for you".)

maxklein 16y ago
You need a simple hook that you repeat over and over again.
- Mz 16y ago
  Like what? "Michele: The Awesome"? (Not entirely kidding. "Awesome" is a word that has been applied to me repeatedly by some folks but I find that other folks really just think I have a huge ego and am all talk. I have never found a direct way around this. It just takes time to prove stuff that others think is 'too good to be true'.)
  - jongraehl 16y ago
    Think about how you appear to others. Pick your battles. Don't seem like you need to impress.

sid6376 16y ago

"If you are any good, you do not need to talk yourself up" I think it's more If you are any good, your work will do the talking for you. Its still upto you to promote your work.

beaumartinez 16y ago

At home I am a nice guy: but I don't want the world to know. Humble people, I've found, don't get very far. —Muhammad Ali

mtran 16y ago
Really tough lesson to learn, and especially so for women. Fred Wilson recently posted an interview of his wife on AVC.com. When asked about one piece of advice she would give female entrepreneurs, Joanne said something like, "Learn to stand on the table and say "I rock"." Great advice for all of us, I think!

kabdib 16y ago

> If you are any good, you do not need to talk yourself up, as others will do it for you No. Do not depend on people to do this for you. I've made this mistake. A few years ago I had a series of weak and bad managers; the review process where I work involves a "stack ranking" system where managers go to bat for you and people are ordered. (I know, it sucks. I don't have control over that, and aside from this I rather like where i work). Weak manager = bad review. You get ranked low and a review is customized for that. Depending on your environment, self promotion is survival. If you are in a tank with sharks, you do not want to be a tuna.