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> Go to https://model.energy/ https://model.energy/ and click on "Show advanced assumption settings". > Now scroll down a bit: > Battery energy capital cost:

> Go to https://model.energy/ https://model.energy/ and click on "Show advanced assumption settings". > Now scroll down a bit: > Battery energy capital cost: 142 Euro/kWh Hydrogen energy capital cost: 0.7 Euro/kWh > What's the ratio of those? About 200! You realize that this site is a calculator, right? It's a calculator used to calculate how much energy would cost for the cost values supplied. You can put whatever you want for that field. This site isn't a study. The value for this figure comes from an external pay walled link. And it looks like that link isn't even talking about storing hydrogen, but storing methane produced from hydrogen gas (power to gas). Methane is much easier to store and is more energy dense by unit of volume, as well as makes use of existing natural gas transportation infrastructure. But power to gas needs an external source of carbon dioxide. And this isn't the actual cost of hydrogen storage, only the capital cost of constructing a storage container. Which is kind of a ridiculous figure to provide for storing gas in a cavern: the storage container is already built for you. But this goes back to the problem of geographic limitation: you can only store hydrogen in a limited set of places. This is like saying we should just power all our energy needs with hydroelectricity and geothermal power.

pfdietz 6y ago
It's a site that gives references to where it got the data. And it's more than a calculator -- it's an optimizer, that gives the most economical mix of generation and storage to supply a constant power output, using real weather data. Those optimization results show that hydrogen beats batteries for long term storage. > And this isn't the actual cost of hydrogen storage, only the capital cost of constructing a storage container. Of course. If you had been reading what I wrote, you would know I know that. The total cost in the model is obtained by adding the energy related cost and the power related cost (as well as the cost of the input energy). And no, the cavern is not already built for you, it's produced by solution mining of an existing salt formation. Follow the NREL link if you want data that's not behind a paywall. Their numbers are even lower. But anyway, the basic point I've been making is extremely elementary, and it's remarkable and more than a little appalling that you are unable to understand it. You need to step back and stop embarrassing yourself.
- manfredo 6y ago
  > And no, the cavern is not already built for you, it's produced by solution mining of an existing salt formation. This plan is to repurpose existing mines. Yes the cavern is already built for you as far as the cost estimates are concerned. > But anyway, the basic point I've been making is extremely elementary, and it's remarkable and more than a little appalling that you are unable to understand it. You need to step back and stop embarrassing yourself. And by resorting to insults you've demonstrated that you are not interested in participating in good faith. This is the exact opposite of what you want to do if you want to convince someone that your claims are correct.

pfdietz 6y ago

It's a site that gives references to where it got the data. And it's more than a calculator -- it's an optimizer, that gives the most economical mix of generation and storage to supply a constant power output, using real weather data. Those optimization results show that hydrogen beats batteries for long term storage. > And this isn't the actual cost of hydrogen storage, only the capital cost of constructing a storage container. Of course. If you had been reading what I wrote, you would know I know that. The total cost in the model is obtained by adding the energy related cost and the power related cost (as well as the cost of the input energy). And no, the cavern is not already built for you, it's produced by solution mining of an existing salt formation. Follow the NREL link if you want data that's not behind a paywall. Their numbers are even lower. But anyway, the basic point I've been making is extremely elementary, and it's remarkable and more than a little appalling that you are unable to understand it. You need to step back and stop embarrassing yourself.

manfredo 6y ago
> And no, the cavern is not already built for you, it's produced by solution mining of an existing salt formation. This plan is to repurpose existing mines. Yes the cavern is already built for you as far as the cost estimates are concerned. > But anyway, the basic point I've been making is extremely elementary, and it's remarkable and more than a little appalling that you are unable to understand it. You need to step back and stop embarrassing yourself. And by resorting to insults you've demonstrated that you are not interested in participating in good faith. This is the exact opposite of what you want to do if you want to convince someone that your claims are correct.