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What is not discussed there is that all these professors signing the document expect to be paid the same as last year. One might argue that if the lectures are

What is not discussed there is that all these professors signing the document expect to be paid the same as last year. One might argue that if the lectures are online then the tuition (and professor pay) should be proportional to the value they produce - and that can't possibly be the same as last year.

watwut 6y ago
Shouldn't salary be market based, theoretically? Salaries are not based on produced value typically. They are result of negotiations.
- joekim 6y ago
  Yeah, agreed. The market sets the price.
- glofish 6y ago
  Right, but those negotiations did assume face to face instructions. If they don't teach face to face then the terms need to be re-negotiated. All I am saying here is not that you should push faculty to do things they don't want - just to have everyone understand they can't get the same salary as before if they provide less value as before.
joekim 6y ago
How would you calculate the reduction in value of lectures if given online? I'd argue the value of the lectures is about the same for large classes, it's the ability to ask questions or students ability to focus that gets harder online.
- noirbot 6y ago
  And at the same time though, it's also generally more work to set things up for an online class, or at least it can be, especially for classes with labs, or ones that usually involved using a whiteboard. It may be a reduction in value to the students, but it's also an increase in work for the professors probably.
  - glofish 6y ago
    is that a good argument? This product if worth X amount for you, but I can only build it for 2X An online course that an average professor puts together will be much worse than what is already available on Coursera. This is what scares the administration, they know cannot compete with that, and bigger things are at stake, like the future of the entire institution.
    - noirbot 6y ago
      I'm not arguing it one way or another, but just saying that even if it's true that the class provides less "value" if it's online, it's almost definitely more work, or at least different work than most of the professors signed up to be doing. If anything, a lot of the cost of a college tuition these days isn't in the pay for the instructors anyway. It's in the campus, the labs, the sports, the social life/club funding and the like.
      - glofish 6y ago
        Ok, are you arguing that all courses will be online, but the campus, labs and sports will be in person? It seems like you are missing the point, if the student is not coming the professor can't get paid either. Do you thing GT will just print more money?
        noirbot 6y ago
        I'm saying that, in a world where campus needs to be closed for safety reasons, but professors can teach online, it's possible to both reduce/discount tuition and still pay professors near what they were making before since they're still doing as much or more work as before. Most of the cost of tuition is physical-world/social events that couldn't take place if campus was closed. I'm not sure what will end up happening, or if it will be fair to either party here. And obviously, if students drop out over this, then that will cause financial issues all over, but that doesn't seem like what's happening. Students are still enrolled and interested in taking classes where possible. On the other end, telling non-tenured professors that they now have to teach entirely online for less money is an easy way for them to go find a different job, which isn't good for GT either.
- glofish 6y ago
  I think if they move all online, the university will have reduced income, that in turn will set the new salaries. It will in a way work out, all I am saying that I don't think these petitioners ever thought about it, or considered that.
joshuamorton 6y ago
[I attended GT for Computer Science and signed one of these petitions] This comment seems to misunderstand professors and universities. Instruction is a relatively small part of professor responsibilities. Most tenured professors will teach perhaps one class a year, some one class a semester. Some do more, though often by choice and at least at Georgia Tech, much of the undergraduate instruction is done by lecturers, who are not tenure track faculty. So the value they produce won't decrease by much. In fact it might actually increase. Georgia Tech is, and has been, one of the leaders in online instruction through the OMSCS program. This allowed professors to be in many ways more valuable and teach more students per professor (with an increase in TAs). My experience is limited mostly to the College of Computing, but some courses taught by other Colleges (notably gen-ed physics I and II in the College of Sciences) have been optionally taught in mixed online form for years (I took an "inverted" Physics course where the lectures were online in 2014). This allowed in-lecture time to be much more tailored to specific student questions. So there's no a priori reason to believe that online instruction is less valuable. (This isn't the same, by the way, as the opinion that university education that is completely online is as valuable as in person, there are environmental factors that are advantageous for in person experiences). There are some classes and subjects where this doesn't always work (Engineering courses often need specialized equipment for more applied course), but these aren't the majority of classes, and forcing a CS professor to lecture in person when the same course, often taught by the same professor, already exists as a MOOC is ridiculous.
- mnky9800n 6y ago
  It's sort of wild you talking about taking those physics courses. I was one of the research scientists supporting Mike and Ed teaching those courses. I always wondered if people liked them or not. We only ever had surveys and such I never interacted with students one on one.
- glofish 6y ago
  Are you seriously arguing that a professor teaching/working from home will produce the same value? And that the students should pay the same tuition as before? Why did we ever have in person classes then if the value is the same? (Later you also state that there are subjects where it cannot possibly work at all) I am not saying that online education is useless, just that it produces less value. I also believe that professors are not even remotely open to the idea that this could be reflected in their salaries.
fcatalan 6y ago
Or maybe if the lectures are online they should be paid proportional to the effort involved, which can't be possibly the same if you have to come up with new materials, find new methods of teaching and engaging the students, etc...
hysan 6y ago
You speak as if teaching in-person is an apples to apples comparison to teaching online where online is strictly easier and of less value. Having done both, this is far from an equal comparison. Putting student value aside, the skill sets needed are different. A professor that can teach in-person AND online equally well is not easy to find. So unless the university is willing to fire their professors and hire ones that are better trained for online teaching, I see no reason for the professors to take some sort of pay cut.
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watwut 6y ago

Shouldn't salary be market based, theoretically? Salaries are not based on produced value typically. They are result of negotiations.

joekim 6y ago
Yeah, agreed. The market sets the price.
glofish 6y ago
Right, but those negotiations did assume face to face instructions. If they don't teach face to face then the terms need to be re-negotiated. All I am saying here is not that you should push faculty to do things they don't want - just to have everyone understand they can't get the same salary as before if they provide less value as before.

joekim 6y ago

How would you calculate the reduction in value of lectures if given online? I'd argue the value of the lectures is about the same for large classes, it's the ability to ask questions or students ability to focus that gets harder online.

noirbot 6y ago
And at the same time though, it's also generally more work to set things up for an online class, or at least it can be, especially for classes with labs, or ones that usually involved using a whiteboard. It may be a reduction in value to the students, but it's also an increase in work for the professors probably.
- glofish 6y ago
  is that a good argument? This product if worth X amount for you, but I can only build it for 2X An online course that an average professor puts together will be much worse than what is already available on Coursera. This is what scares the administration, they know cannot compete with that, and bigger things are at stake, like the future of the entire institution.
  - noirbot 6y ago
    I'm not arguing it one way or another, but just saying that even if it's true that the class provides less "value" if it's online, it's almost definitely more work, or at least different work than most of the professors signed up to be doing. If anything, a lot of the cost of a college tuition these days isn't in the pay for the instructors anyway. It's in the campus, the labs, the sports, the social life/club funding and the like.
    - glofish 6y ago
      Ok, are you arguing that all courses will be online, but the campus, labs and sports will be in person? It seems like you are missing the point, if the student is not coming the professor can't get paid either. Do you thing GT will just print more money?
      - noirbot 6y ago
        I'm saying that, in a world where campus needs to be closed for safety reasons, but professors can teach online, it's possible to both reduce/discount tuition and still pay professors near what they were making before since they're still doing as much or more work as before. Most of the cost of tuition is physical-world/social events that couldn't take place if campus was closed. I'm not sure what will end up happening, or if it will be fair to either party here. And obviously, if students drop out over this, then that will cause financial issues all over, but that doesn't seem like what's happening. Students are still enrolled and interested in taking classes where possible. On the other end, telling non-tenured professors that they now have to teach entirely online for less money is an easy way for them to go find a different job, which isn't good for GT either.
glofish 6y ago
I think if they move all online, the university will have reduced income, that in turn will set the new salaries. It will in a way work out, all I am saying that I don't think these petitioners ever thought about it, or considered that.

joshuamorton 6y ago

[I attended GT for Computer Science and signed one of these petitions] This comment seems to misunderstand professors and universities. Instruction is a relatively small part of professor responsibilities. Most tenured professors will teach perhaps one class a year, some one class a semester. Some do more, though often by choice and at least at Georgia Tech, much of the undergraduate instruction is done by lecturers, who are not tenure track faculty. So the value they produce won't decrease by much. In fact it might actually increase. Georgia Tech is, and has been, one of the leaders in online instruction through the OMSCS program. This allowed professors to be in many ways more valuable and teach more students per professor (with an increase in TAs). My experience is limited mostly to the College of Computing, but some courses taught by other Colleges (notably gen-ed physics I and II in the College of Sciences) have been optionally taught in mixed online form for years (I took an "inverted" Physics course where the lectures were online in 2014). This allowed in-lecture time to be much more tailored to specific student questions. So there's no a priori reason to believe that online instruction is less valuable. (This isn't the same, by the way, as the opinion that university education that is completely online is as valuable as in person, there are environmental factors that are advantageous for in person experiences). There are some classes and subjects where this doesn't always work (Engineering courses often need specialized equipment for more applied course), but these aren't the majority of classes, and forcing a CS professor to lecture in person when the same course, often taught by the same professor, already exists as a MOOC is ridiculous.

mnky9800n 6y ago
It's sort of wild you talking about taking those physics courses. I was one of the research scientists supporting Mike and Ed teaching those courses. I always wondered if people liked them or not. We only ever had surveys and such I never interacted with students one on one.
glofish 6y ago
Are you seriously arguing that a professor teaching/working from home will produce the same value? And that the students should pay the same tuition as before? Why did we ever have in person classes then if the value is the same? (Later you also state that there are subjects where it cannot possibly work at all) I am not saying that online education is useless, just that it produces less value. I also believe that professors are not even remotely open to the idea that this could be reflected in their salaries.

fcatalan 6y ago

Or maybe if the lectures are online they should be paid proportional to the effort involved, which can't be possibly the same if you have to come up with new materials, find new methods of teaching and engaging the students, etc...

hysan 6y ago

You speak as if teaching in-person is an apples to apples comparison to teaching online where online is strictly easier and of less value. Having done both, this is far from an equal comparison. Putting student value aside, the skill sets needed are different. A professor that can teach in-person AND online equally well is not easy to find. So unless the university is willing to fire their professors and hire ones that are better trained for online teaching, I see no reason for the professors to take some sort of pay cut.

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