4 ms·

I think it is worthwhile to examine why westerns chose to use the symbolism of black and white hats.

by dmtroyer 6y ago

cheesecracker 6y ago
Christianity perhaps?
- badrabbit 6y ago
  Perhaps? Is that your go to boogeyman?
  - cheesecracker 6y ago
    WTF? No, it just seems that they use white as symbol for purity and god - angels clad in white, brides in white dresses... My sincere apologies for growing up in a Christian culture, making me an evil colonialist by birth. How can I make amends? Boogeyman - we are talking about the colors black and white here. Get off your high horse!
    - badrabbit 6y ago
      No,this is a universal concept. Night vs day, dark vs light. A strong light is associated with the color white, if you grew up in a Christian culture then you should know the Bible does speak a lot against judging people by appearances. I am not on a high horse, but you picked a belief out of nowhere as if it was particularly significant to the topic, so boogeyman seemed an appropriate characterization.
      - cheesecracker 6y ago
        We were discussing good vs evil, though, not "strong light makes things white". Sure, there are probably some basic properties that make white a likely choice for purity - after all, you see dirt stains on white clothing much better than on dark clothing. I don't know what you mean by "judging people by appearances", how is that relevant? I haven't read the bible, I personally ma not a Christian. I just grew up in Christian culture. And infosec presumably also predominantly developed in that culture, as it was dominating the Western world for wuite a while. I don't think the bible says brides should be dressed in white, nevertheless it seems to be a common Christian tradition. So no, it was not "picked out of nowhere", after all Christian religion was what has defined good and evil for hundreds of years now, in the world in which infosec developed.
        badrabbit 6y ago
        Infosec developed globally but even just in the west, it's hard to call Finland and Denmark for example having a Christian culture. Even in the US, it's less than 50/50 chance even in the 80s to find and an infosec person raised in a Christian household. The color white as I am sure you know is not a color, it's what you see when all spectrums of visible light are observed. Similarly, black is the lack of reflected light. You're typically at increased danger when you lack visible light, that said human skin is never actual pure black. To an European person it is relatively much darker but with african societies you will hear lighter skinned peoppe called white. Treating people worse because their relative skin tone approximates lack of light more than your skin is not unique to west european culture. We are talking about hats, old western hats. It was never a religious thing. Saying religion has something to do with it even when similar patterns of color preference are seen throught most cultures makes me think you have an adverse bias against religion affecting your opinion. But to your point, this bias is not uncommon within infosec or western tech in general. I criticized you simply because I find the ignorance and justification of blaming entire groups even for other people's biases without a modicum of factuality was something I felt was unfair and to be honest less than what I expect of well studied intellectuals such as the typical HN user. That said, apologies for coming of snarky and judgy.
toyg 6y ago
Probably because black has been associated to “death” for millennia (it’s the color of night, which is traditionally dangerous), while white is associated to cleanliness and light. We’re talking Egyptian times, Ancient Greece, etc, when there wasn’t really a concept of “white skin” (more or less everyone in highly-populated European and North-African regions had brown skin, to survive under the sun; very few people even lived in Northern climates). What do you wear when somebody dies, in the Mediterranean region? Black. What do you wear when you celebrate? White. The symbolism is extremely obvious and pre-dating even the “discovery of America”.
- josteink 6y ago
  > The symbolism is extremely obvious and pre-dating even the “discovery of America”. Like anti-racists or BLM-activists care about facts.
  - dmtroyer 6y ago
    wow.
- Nasrudith 6y ago
  Eastern cultures had the opposite association of white with death but that is believed to ironically be a skin color association of the pallor of the deceased. There are some discussions to be had about different symbolisms but treating it as a reductive to always good or bad well, calling it childish is an insult to children.
pests 6y ago
Style? Because they were in black and white originally?
tomohawk 6y ago
Most likely, it comes from presence of light vs absence of light. White is the color most representative of presence of light, while black is the color most representative of absence. In many religions, light represents truth, while darkness represents absence of truth. The good guys shine the light, bad guys cover it up. No reference to race is required for this well known symbolism. The old westerns were shot in black and white, so it was easy to have the white hats be the good guys and the black hats be the bad guys. Easy identification by the audience as to what was going on.

I think it is worthwhile to examine why westerns chose to use the symbolism of black and white hats.

cheesecracker 6y ago

Christianity perhaps?

badrabbit 6y ago
Perhaps? Is that your go to boogeyman?
- cheesecracker 6y ago
  WTF? No, it just seems that they use white as symbol for purity and god - angels clad in white, brides in white dresses... My sincere apologies for growing up in a Christian culture, making me an evil colonialist by birth. How can I make amends? Boogeyman - we are talking about the colors black and white here. Get off your high horse!
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    No,this is a universal concept. Night vs day, dark vs light. A strong light is associated with the color white, if you grew up in a Christian culture then you should know the Bible does speak a lot against judging people by appearances. I am not on a high horse, but you picked a belief out of nowhere as if it was particularly significant to the topic, so boogeyman seemed an appropriate characterization.
    - cheesecracker 6y ago
      We were discussing good vs evil, though, not "strong light makes things white". Sure, there are probably some basic properties that make white a likely choice for purity - after all, you see dirt stains on white clothing much better than on dark clothing. I don't know what you mean by "judging people by appearances", how is that relevant? I haven't read the bible, I personally ma not a Christian. I just grew up in Christian culture. And infosec presumably also predominantly developed in that culture, as it was dominating the Western world for wuite a while. I don't think the bible says brides should be dressed in white, nevertheless it seems to be a common Christian tradition. So no, it was not "picked out of nowhere", after all Christian religion was what has defined good and evil for hundreds of years now, in the world in which infosec developed.
      - badrabbit 6y ago
        Infosec developed globally but even just in the west, it's hard to call Finland and Denmark for example having a Christian culture. Even in the US, it's less than 50/50 chance even in the 80s to find and an infosec person raised in a Christian household. The color white as I am sure you know is not a color, it's what you see when all spectrums of visible light are observed. Similarly, black is the lack of reflected light. You're typically at increased danger when you lack visible light, that said human skin is never actual pure black. To an European person it is relatively much darker but with african societies you will hear lighter skinned peoppe called white. Treating people worse because their relative skin tone approximates lack of light more than your skin is not unique to west european culture. We are talking about hats, old western hats. It was never a religious thing. Saying religion has something to do with it even when similar patterns of color preference are seen throught most cultures makes me think you have an adverse bias against religion affecting your opinion. But to your point, this bias is not uncommon within infosec or western tech in general. I criticized you simply because I find the ignorance and justification of blaming entire groups even for other people's biases without a modicum of factuality was something I felt was unfair and to be honest less than what I expect of well studied intellectuals such as the typical HN user. That said, apologies for coming of snarky and judgy.

toyg 6y ago

Probably because black has been associated to “death” for millennia (it’s the color of night, which is traditionally dangerous), while white is associated to cleanliness and light. We’re talking Egyptian times, Ancient Greece, etc, when there wasn’t really a concept of “white skin” (more or less everyone in highly-populated European and North-African regions had brown skin, to survive under the sun; very few people even lived in Northern climates). What do you wear when somebody dies, in the Mediterranean region? Black. What do you wear when you celebrate? White. The symbolism is extremely obvious and pre-dating even the “discovery of America”.

josteink 6y ago
> The symbolism is extremely obvious and pre-dating even the “discovery of America”. Like anti-racists or BLM-activists care about facts.
- dmtroyer 6y ago
  wow.
Nasrudith 6y ago
Eastern cultures had the opposite association of white with death but that is believed to ironically be a skin color association of the pallor of the deceased. There are some discussions to be had about different symbolisms but treating it as a reductive to always good or bad well, calling it childish is an insult to children.

pests 6y ago

Style? Because they were in black and white originally?

tomohawk 6y ago

Most likely, it comes from presence of light vs absence of light. White is the color most representative of presence of light, while black is the color most representative of absence. In many religions, light represents truth, while darkness represents absence of truth. The good guys shine the light, bad guys cover it up. No reference to race is required for this well known symbolism. The old westerns were shot in black and white, so it was easy to have the white hats be the good guys and the black hats be the bad guys. Easy identification by the audience as to what was going on.