4 ms·

It's offensive in the same way as Call of Duty: Black Ops is offensive, which is "generally not actually offensive". However, it is possible to derive professio

It's offensive in the same way as Call of Duty: Black Ops is offensive, which is "generally not actually offensive". However, it is possible to derive professional advancement from claiming that it is, so expect to see more of this in tech. Also not offensive: Black Friday, black holes, black beans, black tea, black-eyed peas, black gold (aka oil), Black Mirror, black swans.

foogazi 6y ago
What about black beans and white rice: https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/moors-and-christians-em-moros-y-cristianos-em-51203610 https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/moors-and-chri...
- Volundr 6y ago
  While I think some of the name changes going around the community at the moment aren't productive, it's not a good comparison. The black and white in black beans and white rice are accurate descriptions of their color. "Black" is not being used to signify that these are malicious beans, out to cause harm.
  - Brian_K_White 6y ago
    Neither is the malice of black hats associated in any tiniest way with anyone's skin color. The black==bad is a fundamental feature of all humans. Black people also fear the dark and not the sun.
jointpdf 6y ago
I’m not taking a stance on the issue, but this quote from the article illustrates how blacklist vs. whitelist is different than the examples you gave: > “Others pointed to the dualism between black and white as representing evil and good, concepts that have been around since the dawn of civilizations, long before racial divides even existed between humans.” The supporters of the current terminology use this to bolster their argument, but I believe it’s also at the core of the argument against the use of terms like blacklist/whitelist. The idea is that the black vs. white = evil vs. good (like, MTG card colors) can “spill over” into dark skin vs. light skin = evil vs. good. This is an interesting article related to this effect: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-bad-is-black-effect/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-bad-is-black-... Ok fine, I’ll take a weakly-held stance: this seems like a bit of a stretch, and distracts from the more serious ways in which systemic racism manifests itself. On the other hand, I see no need to become outraged—words fall out of favor all the time (go play with the Google n-grams viewer to see for yourself).
- tasssko 6y ago
  When I think black and white I think night and day and not evil and good.
  - catalogia 6y ago
    It's an unfortunate quirk of human brains that fear of the dark is a familiar experience to most children and many adults. I suppose it has something to do with nocturnal tigers hunting our ancestors. Association between nighttime and fear seems biologically unavoidable.
    - tasssko 6y ago
      Agree completely, I remember the books by brothers grimm as a young child. Trolls and goblins and all manner of imaginative creatures used to keep me up at night.
- thewindow 6y ago
  This is quiet common in India also. Black is considered bad, evil and ugly and it spills over into the language. I agree, we need more concrete actions than just thanking things, but they are not mutually exclusive.
- TerminalSystem3 6y ago
  I think your argument is legitimate, but I do think there's a distinction between naturally letting words fall out of favor and forcing it. Words naturally fall out of favor when people simply stop using them - this is a process as old as language itself. This is separate from a group of people unilaterally changing commonly accepted terminology and getting upset and censoring when people don't go along with it. The former, nobody thinks about - see words like "tubular", "rad", "phat", etc. The latter is rather Orwellian, as it's about enforcing a behavioral change on people. People (at least the ones I know) generally hate this, especially in the West.
- scoutt 6y ago
  I wonder what would happen with terms like "grey area". Like in: A: Is this thing bad or good, legal or illegal? B: I think it's a grey area.
DLA 6y ago
Thank you, voice of reason!
hnick 6y ago
I agree with your conclusion (I think we need to be very careful to edit language, lest we forget the lessons of the past) but from the list you gave none of them have a negative connotation - except perhaps black swan, but it's a reference more to rarity. Black hat has an immediate negative connotation.

foogazi 6y ago

What about black beans and white rice: https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/moors-and-christians-em-moros-y-cristianos-em-51203610 https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/moors-and-chri...

Volundr 6y ago
While I think some of the name changes going around the community at the moment aren't productive, it's not a good comparison. The black and white in black beans and white rice are accurate descriptions of their color. "Black" is not being used to signify that these are malicious beans, out to cause harm.
- Brian_K_White 6y ago
  Neither is the malice of black hats associated in any tiniest way with anyone's skin color. The black==bad is a fundamental feature of all humans. Black people also fear the dark and not the sun.

jointpdf 6y ago

I’m not taking a stance on the issue, but this quote from the article illustrates how blacklist vs. whitelist is different than the examples you gave: > “Others pointed to the dualism between black and white as representing evil and good, concepts that have been around since the dawn of civilizations, long before racial divides even existed between humans.” The supporters of the current terminology use this to bolster their argument, but I believe it’s also at the core of the argument against the use of terms like blacklist/whitelist. The idea is that the black vs. white = evil vs. good (like, MTG card colors) can “spill over” into dark skin vs. light skin = evil vs. good. This is an interesting article related to this effect: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-bad-is-black-effect/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-bad-is-black-... Ok fine, I’ll take a weakly-held stance: this seems like a bit of a stretch, and distracts from the more serious ways in which systemic racism manifests itself. On the other hand, I see no need to become outraged—words fall out of favor all the time (go play with the Google n-grams viewer to see for yourself).

tasssko 6y ago
When I think black and white I think night and day and not evil and good.
- catalogia 6y ago
  It's an unfortunate quirk of human brains that fear of the dark is a familiar experience to most children and many adults. I suppose it has something to do with nocturnal tigers hunting our ancestors. Association between nighttime and fear seems biologically unavoidable.
  - tasssko 6y ago
    Agree completely, I remember the books by brothers grimm as a young child. Trolls and goblins and all manner of imaginative creatures used to keep me up at night.
thewindow 6y ago
This is quiet common in India also. Black is considered bad, evil and ugly and it spills over into the language. I agree, we need more concrete actions than just thanking things, but they are not mutually exclusive.
TerminalSystem3 6y ago
I think your argument is legitimate, but I do think there's a distinction between naturally letting words fall out of favor and forcing it. Words naturally fall out of favor when people simply stop using them - this is a process as old as language itself. This is separate from a group of people unilaterally changing commonly accepted terminology and getting upset and censoring when people don't go along with it. The former, nobody thinks about - see words like "tubular", "rad", "phat", etc. The latter is rather Orwellian, as it's about enforcing a behavioral change on people. People (at least the ones I know) generally hate this, especially in the West.
scoutt 6y ago
I wonder what would happen with terms like "grey area". Like in: A: Is this thing bad or good, legal or illegal? B: I think it's a grey area.

DLA 6y ago

Thank you, voice of reason!

hnick 6y ago

I agree with your conclusion (I think we need to be very careful to edit language, lest we forget the lessons of the past) but from the list you gave none of them have a negative connotation - except perhaps black swan, but it's a reference more to rarity. Black hat has an immediate negative connotation.