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Are we? A survery in The Lancet estimated that the Iraq invasion caused an excess of 650k deaths by October 2006. A simple extrapolation would surely put the ex

Are we? A survery in The Lancet estimated that the Iraq invasion caused an excess of 650k deaths by October 2006. A simple extrapolation would surely put the excess deaths in the middle east into millions. It's different though. We're the good guys.

0x8BADF00D 6y ago
All the Muslim majority nations are silent on this matter. It shows how hypocritical they are.
- skinnymuch 6y ago
  Yes. The corrupt selfish elite regimes of countries like Pakistan with the majority of actual citizens struggling to live day by day..wait.. Which ones should be talking? The regimes that clearly don’t care or the struggling people, many of whom barely have adequate internet.
azinman2 6y ago
I’m not saying the Iraq war should have happened, but war as a concept has been around since civilization started. What’s described here isn’t the same thing... there was no formal declaration or ability for them to fight back, and it’s happening largely in secret with denial to erase an entire culture from the earth.
- baron_harkonnen 6y ago
  > war as a concept has been around since civilization started So has genocide... > there was no formal declaration or ability for them to fight back The last formally declared war by the US was WWII, and the second Iraq war was absurdly asymmetrical, they effectively had no "ability for them to fight back", we murdered countless civilians. And go ahead and try to find actual numbers regarding those deaths. There are wide discrepancies between US official numbers, US approved media numbers and numbers from other watch groups. If you think our use of force in the middle east is anything like 'officially declared war between nations' you need to spend more time researching. That's just Iraq, there's a plenty of campaigns right now all through out the middle east. And let's not forget the massive funding of Israel and their perpetual work to drive the Palestinians from their homes. Read up on that and tell me that's not genocide. But if you critique that publicly you'll face immense political backlash. And don't get me started on the way our governments still actively work to destabilize first nations communities and cultures in the US. We unquestionably committed genocide against native populations in our history as a country but you're naive if you think we still aren't working to actively destroy what culture remains (Canada is equally if not no more so guilty of this). > and it’s happening largely in secret The US and China have very different forms of propaganda, but the fact that you think that the US is largely innocent of crimes like these should give anyone reading a sense of how powerful US propaganda and media control really is.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Oh yes all those units of Iraqi children were sure ready to battle. What kind of disingenuous take is this. The cold reality is: I will justify anything my group does no matter the cost and I will condemn what the other group does. I will consider myself just and good.There, I described 90% of humanity, and that will be our downfall. All the rest is posturing and window-dressing.
- croes 6y ago
  The eradication of cultures is at least as old.
- skinnymuch 6y ago
  This seems like justification. If war wasn’t a concept since civilization started, I have a hard time believing there wouldn’t be another excuse. I don’t think the reasoning is sound regardless.
Retric 6y ago
Not to defend the invasion, but the difference between say Japan post WWII and Iraq is almost entirely internal. Blaming the invasion for those deaths is not unreasonable, but it’s glossing over a lot of context.
- drocer88 6y ago
  The "Lancet Surveys" were very controversial : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties#Other_responses_to_criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_cas.... Numerous critics doubt the results.
- croes 6y ago
  But don't forget the context how Iraq became like it was before the invasion.
- IkmoIkmo 6y ago
  That's true in part. But if you gloss over (or understand & accept) those internal differences when planning the invasion, then really the consequences are largely also on you. Every middle-east expert would've predicted the region would be destabilised leading to high-odds of (civil) wars for many years.
  - Retric 6y ago
    I think a Middle East expert with have said the invasion would very likely incite significant violence and economic harm. However, they would have also said a civil war in the next 20 years even without an invasion was also a significant probability. So, plotting out the number of excess deaths assuming a completely stable Iraq is overly optimistic thinking. As external observers it’s easy to think of Iraq as a horrific civil war. Yet, it maintained positive population growth so that’s not what happened. It’s more accurate to consider things in terms of Mexican gangs and lack of social order than civil unrest.
KKKKkkkk1 6y ago
> It's different though. We're the good guys. No. The difference is that the US did not set up concentration camps in Iraq. That's an important detail, I think.
- cambalache 6y ago
  Yes good sir, they only did it in Guantanamo, and the other black sites. More Iraqis were killed by Americans than Uyghurs by China. Both are MONSTERS and fuck the people who justify it.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    Four letters fewer makes this a markedly better comment by site guidelines, FYI.
- breitling 6y ago
  Correct. We just killed them instead. That's infinitely better.

0x8BADF00D 6y ago

All the Muslim majority nations are silent on this matter. It shows how hypocritical they are.

skinnymuch 6y ago
Yes. The corrupt selfish elite regimes of countries like Pakistan with the majority of actual citizens struggling to live day by day..wait.. Which ones should be talking? The regimes that clearly don’t care or the struggling people, many of whom barely have adequate internet.

azinman2 6y ago

I’m not saying the Iraq war should have happened, but war as a concept has been around since civilization started. What’s described here isn’t the same thing... there was no formal declaration or ability for them to fight back, and it’s happening largely in secret with denial to erase an entire culture from the earth.

baron_harkonnen 6y ago
> war as a concept has been around since civilization started So has genocide... > there was no formal declaration or ability for them to fight back The last formally declared war by the US was WWII, and the second Iraq war was absurdly asymmetrical, they effectively had no "ability for them to fight back", we murdered countless civilians. And go ahead and try to find actual numbers regarding those deaths. There are wide discrepancies between US official numbers, US approved media numbers and numbers from other watch groups. If you think our use of force in the middle east is anything like 'officially declared war between nations' you need to spend more time researching. That's just Iraq, there's a plenty of campaigns right now all through out the middle east. And let's not forget the massive funding of Israel and their perpetual work to drive the Palestinians from their homes. Read up on that and tell me that's not genocide. But if you critique that publicly you'll face immense political backlash. And don't get me started on the way our governments still actively work to destabilize first nations communities and cultures in the US. We unquestionably committed genocide against native populations in our history as a country but you're naive if you think we still aren't working to actively destroy what culture remains (Canada is equally if not no more so guilty of this). > and it’s happening largely in secret The US and China have very different forms of propaganda, but the fact that you think that the US is largely innocent of crimes like these should give anyone reading a sense of how powerful US propaganda and media control really is.
cambalache 6y ago
Oh yes all those units of Iraqi children were sure ready to battle. What kind of disingenuous take is this. The cold reality is: I will justify anything my group does no matter the cost and I will condemn what the other group does. I will consider myself just and good.There, I described 90% of humanity, and that will be our downfall. All the rest is posturing and window-dressing.
croes 6y ago
The eradication of cultures is at least as old.
skinnymuch 6y ago
This seems like justification. If war wasn’t a concept since civilization started, I have a hard time believing there wouldn’t be another excuse. I don’t think the reasoning is sound regardless.

Retric 6y ago

Not to defend the invasion, but the difference between say Japan post WWII and Iraq is almost entirely internal. Blaming the invasion for those deaths is not unreasonable, but it’s glossing over a lot of context.

drocer88 6y ago
The "Lancet Surveys" were very controversial : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties#Other_responses_to_criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_cas.... Numerous critics doubt the results.
croes 6y ago
But don't forget the context how Iraq became like it was before the invasion.
IkmoIkmo 6y ago
That's true in part. But if you gloss over (or understand & accept) those internal differences when planning the invasion, then really the consequences are largely also on you. Every middle-east expert would've predicted the region would be destabilised leading to high-odds of (civil) wars for many years.
- Retric 6y ago
  I think a Middle East expert with have said the invasion would very likely incite significant violence and economic harm. However, they would have also said a civil war in the next 20 years even without an invasion was also a significant probability. So, plotting out the number of excess deaths assuming a completely stable Iraq is overly optimistic thinking. As external observers it’s easy to think of Iraq as a horrific civil war. Yet, it maintained positive population growth so that’s not what happened. It’s more accurate to consider things in terms of Mexican gangs and lack of social order than civil unrest.

KKKKkkkk1 6y ago

> It's different though. We're the good guys. No. The difference is that the US did not set up concentration camps in Iraq. That's an important detail, I think.

cambalache 6y ago
Yes good sir, they only did it in Guantanamo, and the other black sites. More Iraqis were killed by Americans than Uyghurs by China. Both are MONSTERS and fuck the people who justify it.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  Four letters fewer makes this a markedly better comment by site guidelines, FYI.
breitling 6y ago
Correct. We just killed them instead. That's infinitely better.