5 ms·

Whataboutism seems to be the key feature linking many posts here. It's not a convincing argument

by sadmann1 6y ago

codekansas 6y ago
Is it just me or does this happen for every article about anything China-related?
- toiletfuneral 6y ago
  I do think it’s weird that a lot of the people most vocal about Uighur persecution were also the cheerleaders for every Middle East intervention as well as building concentration camps for undocumented immigrants. I have racist family who have historically hated Muslims that are enraged at China over this. You call this comment whataboutism if you want but the inconsistency is bizarre. (I am no fan of the Chinese the state at by any means)
- baskire 6y ago
  I’ve noticed it to be the primary defense mechanism of China sympathizers. Funnily enough USSR used similar arguments
  - Can_Not 6y ago
    > Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of the tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy > Others have criticized the usage of accusations of whataboutism by American news outlets, arguing that accusations of whataboutism have been used to simply deflect criticisms of human rights abuses perpetrated by the United States or its allies. They argue that the usage of the term almost exclusively by American outlets is a double standard, and that moral accusations made by powerful countries are merely a pretext to punish their geopolitical rivals in the face of their own wrongdoing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
- CptObvious345 6y ago
  Sssh, you're getting close to noticing that HN, a popular anonymous message board, has become the clear target of professional propagandists. You'll get banned for that. The mods are determined to never see this particular elephant in the room.
  - Orou 6y ago
    > clear target Which means you have clear evidence you can share with everyone, right?
    - CptObvious345 6y ago
      Of course not. Identifying professional propagandists based in 3rd countries isn't my job. Based on the documented propaganda efforts of Russia and China, and the popularity of HN, application of Occam's razor strongly suggests HN will be a target. A cursory reading of this thread supports this. But you can keep pretending it's not happening. I don't much care. It's amusing to watch propagandists string the HN crowd along.
  - fouric 6y ago
    I don't think that the mods deny the astroturfing happening. They're actively looking out for and removing it. I think it's more that they don't want arguments to become polluted with accusations of astroturfing against specific users.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > I don't think that the mods deny the astroturfing happening. They're actively looking out for and removing it. What I've understood from comments from dang so far is that it's mostly allegations based on feelings of disbelief ("no sane person could ever believe that, this user must be a paid shill") and when they look at it there's nothing to see. It doesn't seem to be an actual issue, more of a moral panic and a blunt instrument to silent dissent.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Udik 6y ago
  I am trying my best to avoid it though I have my axe to grind. But it's hard because it all strikes me at least as preposterous: all these terrible news about China started to come out just when it suddenly turned from "super dynamic developing country we can make tons of money with" to "serious competitor to our economic and technological supremacy". And my personal axe tells me that when it's about friends, it's all fine anyway. For the specific case, I know very little about what's happening to the Uighurs, though I tend to think that China doesn't practice tolerance and the Uighurs don't practice integration. I am afraid of moral outrage though, especially when it seems to affect majorities: it can become very dangerous.
refurb 6y ago
"And you are lynching Negroes" (Russian: "А у вас негров линчуют", A u vas negrov linchuyut) and the later "And you are hanging blacks" are catchphrases that describe or satirize Soviet propaganda's response to American criticisms of its human rights violations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes

Whataboutism seems to be the key feature linking many posts here. It's not a convincing argument

codekansas 6y ago

Is it just me or does this happen for every article about anything China-related?

toiletfuneral 6y ago
I do think it’s weird that a lot of the people most vocal about Uighur persecution were also the cheerleaders for every Middle East intervention as well as building concentration camps for undocumented immigrants. I have racist family who have historically hated Muslims that are enraged at China over this. You call this comment whataboutism if you want but the inconsistency is bizarre. (I am no fan of the Chinese the state at by any means)
baskire 6y ago
I’ve noticed it to be the primary defense mechanism of China sympathizers. Funnily enough USSR used similar arguments
- Can_Not 6y ago
  > Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of the tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy > Others have criticized the usage of accusations of whataboutism by American news outlets, arguing that accusations of whataboutism have been used to simply deflect criticisms of human rights abuses perpetrated by the United States or its allies. They argue that the usage of the term almost exclusively by American outlets is a double standard, and that moral accusations made by powerful countries are merely a pretext to punish their geopolitical rivals in the face of their own wrongdoing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
CptObvious345 6y ago
Sssh, you're getting close to noticing that HN, a popular anonymous message board, has become the clear target of professional propagandists. You'll get banned for that. The mods are determined to never see this particular elephant in the room.
- Orou 6y ago
  > clear target Which means you have clear evidence you can share with everyone, right?
  - CptObvious345 6y ago
    Of course not. Identifying professional propagandists based in 3rd countries isn't my job. Based on the documented propaganda efforts of Russia and China, and the popularity of HN, application of Occam's razor strongly suggests HN will be a target. A cursory reading of this thread supports this. But you can keep pretending it's not happening. I don't much care. It's amusing to watch propagandists string the HN crowd along.
- fouric 6y ago
  I don't think that the mods deny the astroturfing happening. They're actively looking out for and removing it. I think it's more that they don't want arguments to become polluted with accusations of astroturfing against specific users.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > I don't think that the mods deny the astroturfing happening. They're actively looking out for and removing it. What I've understood from comments from dang so far is that it's mostly allegations based on feelings of disbelief ("no sane person could ever believe that, this user must be a paid shill") and when they look at it there's nothing to see. It doesn't seem to be an actual issue, more of a moral panic and a blunt instrument to silent dissent.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Udik 6y ago
I am trying my best to avoid it though I have my axe to grind. But it's hard because it all strikes me at least as preposterous: all these terrible news about China started to come out just when it suddenly turned from "super dynamic developing country we can make tons of money with" to "serious competitor to our economic and technological supremacy". And my personal axe tells me that when it's about friends, it's all fine anyway. For the specific case, I know very little about what's happening to the Uighurs, though I tend to think that China doesn't practice tolerance and the Uighurs don't practice integration. I am afraid of moral outrage though, especially when it seems to affect majorities: it can become very dangerous.

refurb 6y ago

"And you are lynching Negroes" (Russian: "А у вас негров линчуют", A u vas negrov linchuyut) and the later "And you are hanging blacks" are catchphrases that describe or satirize Soviet propaganda's response to American criticisms of its human rights violations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes