5 ms·

The most logical explanation is that it comes from a laboratory

27 points by markdog12 6y ago

markdog12 6y ago
I came to this link from HN, but noticed it was deleted? Not sure why?
- dsr_ 6y ago
  Probably because it makes a lot of claims while dismissing every other explanation. Without citations, it is indistinguishable from the Weekly World News.
  - markdog12 6y ago
    I've also linked to an article that dismisses the study in question, and links to it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controversial-coronavirus-lab-origin-claims-dismissed-by-experts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controver... But why would it be deleted? I guess because it has already been on here? Maybe multiple times? But wouldn't people just link to previous discussion(s)?
    - Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
      Fair enough https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23725966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23725966 (18 points, 4 comments, Flagged. Posted 1 day ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727763 (10 points, 3 comments, Not Flagged. Posted 1 day ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738264 (22 points, 4 comments, Flagged, Dead. Posted 3 hours ago) & yours (21 points, 14 comments, Flagged) I don't have a stance on the topic (that I want to discuss or is relevant here) but I nearly skipped it since it seemed a bit Off Topic in regards to the submission guidelines and possibly a bit 'hot button-ish' but was intrigued enough to take a look and comment after seeing a 21 point submission being Flagged. Hope that helps [Edit to add - I didn't downvote or flag any of these but up till now had not read any of the links nor comments]
      - markdog12 6y ago
        Thanks, I hadn't seen those. I did a search, but I guess flagged submissions don't show up. It might be handy to have a link to see the flagged ones. If that was the case, I wouldn't have re-submitted. Edit: Just did the search again, for "laboratory", and this flagged submission showed up. Not sure why the original one didn't show up for me.
        Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
        I picked them up from a search using https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=minervanett.no https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=minervanett.no as a query. Usually HN detects a duplicate submission URL (or certainly it did - which has saved me from posting a dupe or two in the past)
  - inciampati 6y ago
    It doesn't dismiss the other explanations, but argues that they are probably less likely than the current narrative would suggest: > “In a sense it is natural. But the natural processes have most likely been accelerated in a laboratory,” he explains. “It’s also possible for a virus to attain these properties in nature, but it’s not likely. If the mutations had happened in nature, we would have most likely seen that the virus had attracted other properties through mutations, not just properties that help the virus to attach itself to human cells.”
- eplanit 6y ago
  Speaking against the sanctioned narrative is "dangerous".
nkurz 6y ago
This article has been posted several times, occasionally hitting the front page before being flagged off. It seems like a good article about legitimate scientist who holds a controversial opinion. Rather than just flagging it, could we have the discussion about why it is extremely unlikely to be true? The alternative is that those who believe the virus was created in a lab never get to see the the counter arguments, and probably consider the flagging as confirmation that they are correct. Alternatively, could we use this space as the discussion for why the article is inappropriate? While it's arguable that the origin of a virus off-topic for a tech site, I feel certain the issue is not the topic but the conclusion. What's the argument that this conclusion is too dangerous even discuss?
- war1025 6y ago
  I think the trouble is that, despite this researcher being from Europe, the lab-made origin theory is "right wing", and thus more or less blasphemy in certain circles. You see the same thing any time a Hydroxychloroquine article comes up. "Wrong think" must be suppressed.
- svara 6y ago
  I'm flagging it because it's just presenting the view of some guy who asserts something. There's not enough information in there for a fact-based discussion. Since this topic is unfortunately a politically loaded one, that basically guarantees the discussion is going to turn to shit. If somebody were to post an article presenting clear arguments based on data, I wouldn't flag.
  - nkurz 6y ago
    > just presenting the view of some guy I haven't independently verified anything, but the article claims that rather than just being "some guy", the interviewee is a prominent Norwegian scientist who is respected for his work on HIV and is currently working on a vaccine for COVID-19. If this is true, I feel he is above any reasonable bar for having a right to an opinion. > There's not enough information in there for a fact-based discussion. Compared to some earlier articles, I was pleased to see that this one included quite a bit of detail --- it even has a pullout trying to explain the relevance of spike proteins! And while it would be nice if there was a published scientific article, the authors of this news article directly address that: "Minerva has read a draft of the article, and has after an overall assessment decided that the findings and arguments do deserve public debate, and that this discussion cannot depend entirely on the publication process of scientific journals." Still, I do appreciate your response, and hope others can join in on discussing whether flagging is appropriate.
markdog12 6y ago
Article which refutes the findings: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controversial-coronavirus-lab-origin-claims-dismissed-by-experts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controver...
- hulahoof 6y ago
  The articles and sources from the articles you have linked seem to refute the claim that the virus was artificially engineered from scratch; rather than having a lab accelerated evolution towards 'desireable traits' for human infection that TFA is suggesting

27 points by markdog12 6y ago

markdog12 6y ago

I came to this link from HN, but noticed it was deleted? Not sure why?

dsr_ 6y ago
Probably because it makes a lot of claims while dismissing every other explanation. Without citations, it is indistinguishable from the Weekly World News.
- markdog12 6y ago
  I've also linked to an article that dismisses the study in question, and links to it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controversial-coronavirus-lab-origin-claims-dismissed-by-experts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controver... But why would it be deleted? I guess because it has already been on here? Maybe multiple times? But wouldn't people just link to previous discussion(s)?
  - Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
    Fair enough https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23725966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23725966 (18 points, 4 comments, Flagged. Posted 1 day ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727763 (10 points, 3 comments, Not Flagged. Posted 1 day ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23738264 (22 points, 4 comments, Flagged, Dead. Posted 3 hours ago) & yours (21 points, 14 comments, Flagged) I don't have a stance on the topic (that I want to discuss or is relevant here) but I nearly skipped it since it seemed a bit Off Topic in regards to the submission guidelines and possibly a bit 'hot button-ish' but was intrigued enough to take a look and comment after seeing a 21 point submission being Flagged. Hope that helps [Edit to add - I didn't downvote or flag any of these but up till now had not read any of the links nor comments]
    - markdog12 6y ago
      Thanks, I hadn't seen those. I did a search, but I guess flagged submissions don't show up. It might be handy to have a link to see the flagged ones. If that was the case, I wouldn't have re-submitted. Edit: Just did the search again, for "laboratory", and this flagged submission showed up. Not sure why the original one didn't show up for me.
      - Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
        I picked them up from a search using https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=minervanett.no https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=minervanett.no as a query. Usually HN detects a duplicate submission URL (or certainly it did - which has saved me from posting a dupe or two in the past)
- inciampati 6y ago
  It doesn't dismiss the other explanations, but argues that they are probably less likely than the current narrative would suggest: > “In a sense it is natural. But the natural processes have most likely been accelerated in a laboratory,” he explains. “It’s also possible for a virus to attain these properties in nature, but it’s not likely. If the mutations had happened in nature, we would have most likely seen that the virus had attracted other properties through mutations, not just properties that help the virus to attach itself to human cells.”
eplanit 6y ago
Speaking against the sanctioned narrative is "dangerous".

nkurz 6y ago

This article has been posted several times, occasionally hitting the front page before being flagged off. It seems like a good article about legitimate scientist who holds a controversial opinion. Rather than just flagging it, could we have the discussion about why it is extremely unlikely to be true? The alternative is that those who believe the virus was created in a lab never get to see the the counter arguments, and probably consider the flagging as confirmation that they are correct. Alternatively, could we use this space as the discussion for why the article is inappropriate? While it's arguable that the origin of a virus off-topic for a tech site, I feel certain the issue is not the topic but the conclusion. What's the argument that this conclusion is too dangerous even discuss?

war1025 6y ago
I think the trouble is that, despite this researcher being from Europe, the lab-made origin theory is "right wing", and thus more or less blasphemy in certain circles. You see the same thing any time a Hydroxychloroquine article comes up. "Wrong think" must be suppressed.
svara 6y ago
I'm flagging it because it's just presenting the view of some guy who asserts something. There's not enough information in there for a fact-based discussion. Since this topic is unfortunately a politically loaded one, that basically guarantees the discussion is going to turn to shit. If somebody were to post an article presenting clear arguments based on data, I wouldn't flag.
- nkurz 6y ago
  > just presenting the view of some guy I haven't independently verified anything, but the article claims that rather than just being "some guy", the interviewee is a prominent Norwegian scientist who is respected for his work on HIV and is currently working on a vaccine for COVID-19. If this is true, I feel he is above any reasonable bar for having a right to an opinion. > There's not enough information in there for a fact-based discussion. Compared to some earlier articles, I was pleased to see that this one included quite a bit of detail --- it even has a pullout trying to explain the relevance of spike proteins! And while it would be nice if there was a published scientific article, the authors of this news article directly address that: "Minerva has read a draft of the article, and has after an overall assessment decided that the findings and arguments do deserve public debate, and that this discussion cannot depend entirely on the publication process of scientific journals." Still, I do appreciate your response, and hope others can join in on discussing whether flagging is appropriate.

markdog12 6y ago

Article which refutes the findings: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controversial-coronavirus-lab-origin-claims-dismissed-by-experts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidnikel/2020/06/07/controver...

hulahoof 6y ago
The articles and sources from the articles you have linked seem to refute the claim that the virus was artificially engineered from scratch; rather than having a lab accelerated evolution towards 'desireable traits' for human infection that TFA is suggesting