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> Right now we're attempting to fix issues in prod by looking at another company's software, decompiling it, bit fiddling a bit, then trying to hot patch it int

> Right now we're attempting to fix issues in prod by looking at another company's software, decompiling it, bit fiddling a bit, then trying to hot patch it into our own production instance. The staging/prod analogy is flawed. What we are doing is manipulating board wiring, while what we could do is further our understanding of and abilities to alter the OS and firmware running on it. Very unfortunately, but understandably, scientifically oriented mindset tends to dismiss the latter route. After all, so far it seemingly rules out any notion of dev environment. Where is reproducibility, if all we can do is SSH into a snowflake live system (or more like XSS inject it, right)? A daunting limitation, but perhaps not impossible to overcome. That is not to say the former has no place and your point is invalid. Still, when all you have is a hammer…

echelon 6y ago
> The staging/prod analogy is flawed. I agree. Thanks for providing a better one. > Where is reproducibility, if all we can do is SSH into a snowflake live system That's the beauty of this, though. You'd have monoclonal lines of decephalized humans. They're not snowflakes. You'd have knockout lines for studying specific genes, ABO- lines for a blood supply, lines for all the major MHC/HLA for transplants... If you have twenty identical deceph human clones, you can run your same experiment in duplicate and push for statistically meaningful results. Over time we'd aim to reduce the costs of the bodies so that they are cheap to expend in individual experiments. That's when it becomes incredibly powerful, when the average researcher can afford these in their budget. We might learn to control the rate of development. Quickly grow them in a way that doesn't interfere with the experimental results.
- goblin89 6y ago
  > That's the beauty of this, though. You'd have monoclonal lines of decephalized humans. They're not snowflakes. Your approach does not duplicate the OS, only hardware wiring. Again, not to say fiddling with condensers and transistors can’t fix a misbehaving program, but it’s not always the best way to address the issue with fewest side-effects.
  - TomMarius 6y ago
    It's better to not think about biology as software vs hardware. Also, most diseases would be hardware defects in this metaphor, so why would fixing hardware not help? If you can treat a brainless person for the disease (we do that, e.g. if a mother is bearing a child, we might keep her alive even though she is brain dead), there shouldn't be any problem with using decephalized humans as models. Placebo effect works (e.g.) by tricking the immune system into action (doable in a decephalized human just as well), not by telling the disease to go away.
    - goblin89 6y ago
      The assumption that most diseases are hardware is that, an assumption. Some may be, sure. But could it be that a blanket claim like that comes from us already knowing how to access the hardware, and being uncomfortable to wander out of that comfort zone? Of course you can’t “tell” the disease to go away any more you can tell a bug to take a hike, but saying we can manipulate the hardware to trigger whatever immune, etc. responses just as well comes from that being the thing we can sort of do reliably at this point. And even then, can we really? Read about the phenomenon of cascading medical involvement during childbearing and birth: turns out “hardware manipulation”, which is very compelling to do, tends to have compounding hidden consequences, while the adjustments in the elusive “software” (inducing relaxed state etc.) somehow appear to yield straightforward results. Again, immediately life-threatening conditions aside. Manipulating transistors and condensers (triggering an immune response, in your example) might just be a suboptimal, incomplete approach when compared to updating the firmware logic (making it so that the response is triggered when and how needed), or of course better yet both. Our discomfort with the associated uncertainty, however, makes this an unfashionable direction of scientific exploration.
      - TomMarius 6y ago
        This is exactly where the software/hardware metaphor breaks. The software is the hardware, and the hardware is the software. The mind is - not influenced, it simply is exactly that - the processes in the brain, and the body acts on various kinds of signals sent by the brain and vice versa - and we should be perfectly able to simulate these signals if we can grow a brainless human body, and see the effects on the body. That would help us a lot in determining what needs to happen within the brain and in turn within the mind, for example, if said problem is psychosomatic or mentally fixable. However not everything is driven by the brain - and treatment for stuff like most types of cancer has nothing to do with the brain at all, same goes with vaccines development, stuff like Crohn's disease etc. Let's say it's possible to trigger immune response by focusing really hard. Still we need the brainless human to determine which signals the brain needs to send before we start trying to get people to focus really hard.

echelon 6y ago

> The staging/prod analogy is flawed. I agree. Thanks for providing a better one. > Where is reproducibility, if all we can do is SSH into a snowflake live system That's the beauty of this, though. You'd have monoclonal lines of decephalized humans. They're not snowflakes. You'd have knockout lines for studying specific genes, ABO- lines for a blood supply, lines for all the major MHC/HLA for transplants... If you have twenty identical deceph human clones, you can run your same experiment in duplicate and push for statistically meaningful results. Over time we'd aim to reduce the costs of the bodies so that they are cheap to expend in individual experiments. That's when it becomes incredibly powerful, when the average researcher can afford these in their budget. We might learn to control the rate of development. Quickly grow them in a way that doesn't interfere with the experimental results.

goblin89 6y ago
> That's the beauty of this, though. You'd have monoclonal lines of decephalized humans. They're not snowflakes. Your approach does not duplicate the OS, only hardware wiring. Again, not to say fiddling with condensers and transistors can’t fix a misbehaving program, but it’s not always the best way to address the issue with fewest side-effects.
- TomMarius 6y ago
  It's better to not think about biology as software vs hardware. Also, most diseases would be hardware defects in this metaphor, so why would fixing hardware not help? If you can treat a brainless person for the disease (we do that, e.g. if a mother is bearing a child, we might keep her alive even though she is brain dead), there shouldn't be any problem with using decephalized humans as models. Placebo effect works (e.g.) by tricking the immune system into action (doable in a decephalized human just as well), not by telling the disease to go away.
  - goblin89 6y ago
    The assumption that most diseases are hardware is that, an assumption. Some may be, sure. But could it be that a blanket claim like that comes from us already knowing how to access the hardware, and being uncomfortable to wander out of that comfort zone? Of course you can’t “tell” the disease to go away any more you can tell a bug to take a hike, but saying we can manipulate the hardware to trigger whatever immune, etc. responses just as well comes from that being the thing we can sort of do reliably at this point. And even then, can we really? Read about the phenomenon of cascading medical involvement during childbearing and birth: turns out “hardware manipulation”, which is very compelling to do, tends to have compounding hidden consequences, while the adjustments in the elusive “software” (inducing relaxed state etc.) somehow appear to yield straightforward results. Again, immediately life-threatening conditions aside. Manipulating transistors and condensers (triggering an immune response, in your example) might just be a suboptimal, incomplete approach when compared to updating the firmware logic (making it so that the response is triggered when and how needed), or of course better yet both. Our discomfort with the associated uncertainty, however, makes this an unfashionable direction of scientific exploration.
    - TomMarius 6y ago
      This is exactly where the software/hardware metaphor breaks. The software is the hardware, and the hardware is the software. The mind is - not influenced, it simply is exactly that - the processes in the brain, and the body acts on various kinds of signals sent by the brain and vice versa - and we should be perfectly able to simulate these signals if we can grow a brainless human body, and see the effects on the body. That would help us a lot in determining what needs to happen within the brain and in turn within the mind, for example, if said problem is psychosomatic or mentally fixable. However not everything is driven by the brain - and treatment for stuff like most types of cancer has nothing to do with the brain at all, same goes with vaccines development, stuff like Crohn's disease etc. Let's say it's possible to trigger immune response by focusing really hard. Still we need the brainless human to determine which signals the brain needs to send before we start trying to get people to focus really hard.