5 ms·

Believe in the narrative of careerism, work at companies until you retire, all that. Lots of young folks are saying "it's all a scam", dropping out, buying RVs,

Believe in the narrative of careerism, work at companies until you retire, all that. Lots of young folks are saying "it's all a scam", dropping out, buying RVs, vans, moving to farms, etc.

joelbluminator 6y ago
There's also the environmental issue. If you're environmentally conscious you can't work for a lot of companies, commuting becomes a problem etc. I don't know how much of a factor it is but I believe for some people it is.
- adammunich 6y ago
  Definitely the case for some people but I don't think it's driving force for a large percentage (yet). Maybe a few more droughts and food shortages would change that though.
xwdv 6y ago
The young folk who say this are often ones who were sold on a lie that getting massive student loan debt for a degree from a university was a ticket to the good life and the right thing to do. Unfortunately that’s not really true and they find they wasted a lot of time and money and have no prospects and mounting debt.
- adammunich 6y ago
  Indeed, so how can the situation be corrected?
  - syshum 6y ago
    Restructure how we do education in this nation After person spends 12 years in the public schooling system being educated and after tax payers have invested hundreds of thousands into that person the result should produce a functional adult capable of filling more than 50% if not closer to 70% of middle class jobs in a given nation. Instead for the last 30+ years we have pushed more and more jobs out of reach for a person with a standard public education largely do to decreasing standards in that public education combined with the self reinforcing feedback loop up university funding. This is the true cause of the erosion of the middle class that is perceived to be happening. 20-30 years ago most jobs on the market did not have a degree requirement, and there were many middle class jobs that people with out degree's could fill. As we pushed the jobs more and more to have a degree (any degree not even a degree in the field just any random degree will do), with it means many people are starting their adult life in massive debt, where before the it would have been a home, or something like that. If we want to fix the nation, the solution is not free College for everyone (like many young people and social democrats want to propose) the solution is to make a standard K-12 Education applicable again for most middle class jobs
    - adammunich 6y ago
      Absolutely agreed. The K-12 problem seems to be one exacerbated by school leaders optimizing for things that can be graded and "tested" in the name of "standardization and fairness". But when it comes to fostering discovery, like science education should, it doesn't always fit that "standard model" if you will...
    - grenoire 6y ago
      >If we want to fix the nation, the solution is not free College for everyone (like many young people and social democrats want to propose) the solution is to make a standard K-12 Education applicable again for most middle class jobs. Interesting thing is, a bachelor's degree in Europe is basically that advanced K-12 you're suggesting. The main difference is that it's way cheaper, and occasionally faster (2-3 year programmes are not rare, certain countries have a degree between high school and research universities).
chrispauley 6y ago
I am unsure what is meant by 'economic system' then, perhaps just the status quo? Buying RVs and starting new lives certainly keeps money flowing.
- adammunich 6y ago
  Home ownership, consumption, idealizing material wealth, seeking that elite "career title", etc.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Especially in the tech field, it’s just the opposite. When I graduated in the mid 90s, computer science was just another career field that afforded a middle class life. Now, if you graduate from a decent college and don’t get to “work for a FAANG” and start off making six figures your life is over as far as they are concerned. Take a peek over at r/cscareerquestions
    - searchableguy 6y ago
      CS career questions is an odd ball though. Internet isn't a reliable way to assess what young people actually think especially in geek or programming circles. Also, it's not just young people. If you tell someone ignoring the age that you are a plumber or farmer, they aren't going to look at you nicely even if you earn more than the engineer next door. Social media has changed perception of people regarding work. It is a primary means of keeping up with the world for younger gen and targeted advertisements make it worse. Instagram feeds have a happy skin-showing bias. Tiktok removes anything too sad or ugly. I expressed in my earlier comment that expectations for young people now are different. They think they should be able to live better than their parents do now or did on the same folds the productivity has increased. Compare 2000 to now and how work has been automated or made easier. Why not 5x-10x improvement in the living condition? That is why they want to get into FAANG.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        > CS career questions is an odd ball though. Internet isn't a reliable way to assess what young people actually think especially in geek or programming circles. Just look at the two emphasized parts of your statement.
scarface74 6y ago
The idea of working for one company until you retired was dying out at least since the 401K started replacing pensions in the 90s. There is no statistical evidence that young people are buying RVs to live in and not just recreationally. This is mostly a puff piece, but it is saying that young people are buying smaller RVs and older people are making it more of a lifestyle. https://www.curbed.com/2019/5/31/18636155/rv-camper-millennial-van-life-camping-tips https://www.curbed.com/2019/5/31/18636155/rv-camper-millenni... As far as farming, the article is trying to tell a narrative, but it’s own citations don’t back it up. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-growing-number-of-young-americans-are-leaving-desk-jobs-to-farm/2017/11/23/e3c018ae-c64e-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-growing-nu... The number of young farmers entering the field is nowhere near enough to replace the number exiting, according to the USDA: Between 2007 and 2012, agriculture gained 2,384 farmers between ages 25 and 34 — and lost nearly 100,000 between 45 and 54.
- adammunich 6y ago
  I wouldn't say the folks I know who are moving to farms intend to go into the business. More so as a means of seeing it as a way to find solid footing so they can escape many years of landlords having a tight grip on their income.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    And instead now they have to worry about major food buyers squeezing their income, droughts, etc “Everyone has a boss”.
    - adammunich 6y ago
      Never heard one person planning on selling to major food buyers. Everyone knows that's a losing game. Farmers markets and co-ops give much better prices. It's not about money though. The motivations are to get away from money actually, and to just have your needs met. You can eat like a king for a month just from a single pig slaughter.

Believe in the narrative of careerism, work at companies until you retire, all that. Lots of young folks are saying "it's all a scam", dropping out, buying RVs, vans, moving to farms, etc.

joelbluminator 6y ago

There's also the environmental issue. If you're environmentally conscious you can't work for a lot of companies, commuting becomes a problem etc. I don't know how much of a factor it is but I believe for some people it is.

adammunich 6y ago
Definitely the case for some people but I don't think it's driving force for a large percentage (yet). Maybe a few more droughts and food shortages would change that though.

xwdv 6y ago

The young folk who say this are often ones who were sold on a lie that getting massive student loan debt for a degree from a university was a ticket to the good life and the right thing to do. Unfortunately that’s not really true and they find they wasted a lot of time and money and have no prospects and mounting debt.

adammunich 6y ago
Indeed, so how can the situation be corrected?
- syshum 6y ago
  Restructure how we do education in this nation After person spends 12 years in the public schooling system being educated and after tax payers have invested hundreds of thousands into that person the result should produce a functional adult capable of filling more than 50% if not closer to 70% of middle class jobs in a given nation. Instead for the last 30+ years we have pushed more and more jobs out of reach for a person with a standard public education largely do to decreasing standards in that public education combined with the self reinforcing feedback loop up university funding. This is the true cause of the erosion of the middle class that is perceived to be happening. 20-30 years ago most jobs on the market did not have a degree requirement, and there were many middle class jobs that people with out degree's could fill. As we pushed the jobs more and more to have a degree (any degree not even a degree in the field just any random degree will do), with it means many people are starting their adult life in massive debt, where before the it would have been a home, or something like that. If we want to fix the nation, the solution is not free College for everyone (like many young people and social democrats want to propose) the solution is to make a standard K-12 Education applicable again for most middle class jobs
  - adammunich 6y ago
    Absolutely agreed. The K-12 problem seems to be one exacerbated by school leaders optimizing for things that can be graded and "tested" in the name of "standardization and fairness". But when it comes to fostering discovery, like science education should, it doesn't always fit that "standard model" if you will...
  - grenoire 6y ago
    >If we want to fix the nation, the solution is not free College for everyone (like many young people and social democrats want to propose) the solution is to make a standard K-12 Education applicable again for most middle class jobs. Interesting thing is, a bachelor's degree in Europe is basically that advanced K-12 you're suggesting. The main difference is that it's way cheaper, and occasionally faster (2-3 year programmes are not rare, certain countries have a degree between high school and research universities).

chrispauley 6y ago

I am unsure what is meant by 'economic system' then, perhaps just the status quo? Buying RVs and starting new lives certainly keeps money flowing.

adammunich 6y ago
Home ownership, consumption, idealizing material wealth, seeking that elite "career title", etc.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Especially in the tech field, it’s just the opposite. When I graduated in the mid 90s, computer science was just another career field that afforded a middle class life. Now, if you graduate from a decent college and don’t get to “work for a FAANG” and start off making six figures your life is over as far as they are concerned. Take a peek over at r/cscareerquestions
  - searchableguy 6y ago
    CS career questions is an odd ball though. Internet isn't a reliable way to assess what young people actually think especially in geek or programming circles. Also, it's not just young people. If you tell someone ignoring the age that you are a plumber or farmer, they aren't going to look at you nicely even if you earn more than the engineer next door. Social media has changed perception of people regarding work. It is a primary means of keeping up with the world for younger gen and targeted advertisements make it worse. Instagram feeds have a happy skin-showing bias. Tiktok removes anything too sad or ugly. I expressed in my earlier comment that expectations for young people now are different. They think they should be able to live better than their parents do now or did on the same folds the productivity has increased. Compare 2000 to now and how work has been automated or made easier. Why not 5x-10x improvement in the living condition? That is why they want to get into FAANG.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      > CS career questions is an odd ball though. Internet isn't a reliable way to assess what young people actually think especially in geek or programming circles. Just look at the two emphasized parts of your statement.

scarface74 6y ago

The idea of working for one company until you retired was dying out at least since the 401K started replacing pensions in the 90s. There is no statistical evidence that young people are buying RVs to live in and not just recreationally. This is mostly a puff piece, but it is saying that young people are buying smaller RVs and older people are making it more of a lifestyle. https://www.curbed.com/2019/5/31/18636155/rv-camper-millennial-van-life-camping-tips https://www.curbed.com/2019/5/31/18636155/rv-camper-millenni... As far as farming, the article is trying to tell a narrative, but it’s own citations don’t back it up. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-growing-number-of-young-americans-are-leaving-desk-jobs-to-farm/2017/11/23/e3c018ae-c64e-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/a-growing-nu... The number of young farmers entering the field is nowhere near enough to replace the number exiting, according to the USDA: Between 2007 and 2012, agriculture gained 2,384 farmers between ages 25 and 34 — and lost nearly 100,000 between 45 and 54.

adammunich 6y ago
I wouldn't say the folks I know who are moving to farms intend to go into the business. More so as a means of seeing it as a way to find solid footing so they can escape many years of landlords having a tight grip on their income.
- scarface74 6y ago
  And instead now they have to worry about major food buyers squeezing their income, droughts, etc “Everyone has a boss”.
  - adammunich 6y ago
    Never heard one person planning on selling to major food buyers. Everyone knows that's a losing game. Farmers markets and co-ops give much better prices. It's not about money though. The motivations are to get away from money actually, and to just have your needs met. You can eat like a king for a month just from a single pig slaughter.