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The author goes into that in the next section of the article. Forgiveness starts with an apology.

by wffurr 6y ago

yodelshady 6y ago
Forgiveness also requires our being right. That's not a given. If not, it's not an apology, it's shouting at someone until they're too exhausted to defend themselves any more. So, we should start by not assuming that. Especially when large numbers of people agree with us.
- jkoudys 6y ago
  Forgiveness certainly does not require being correct. The "mistake" language is excellent, because it covers cases where you may not have been badgered at all. You could feel it was a mistake to post something based on its timing (eg a tasteless joke)
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Forgiveness doesn't require rightness. Consider Dumbledore's analysis of Percy Weasley abandoning his family: "it is easier to forgive others for being wrong than for being right." Unpacking, it means Percy knows he is wrong and it's much harder for him to swallow his pride because he is not right.
new2628 6y ago
> Forgiveness starts with an apology. This is often claimed, but I'm not sure I agree. Why can't I forgive someone who wronged me even if they didn't apologize? Or perhaps even if they don't see that they wronged me.
garraeth 6y ago
Forgiveness requiring an apology isn't true forgiveness, it's more akin to revenge. And if you wait for an apology, you'll never be able to forgive, remove that burden from yourself, from those who have wronged you who are dead. Many instances of anger and a lack of forgiveness are multi-generational - or even parent/child. People can rightly forgive without the other party even knowing about it. In fact, I'd argue the best kind of forgiveness is done completely silently, personally, and the only way anyone could figure you that you have forgiven someone is through your subsequent behavior.
- JoeSmithson 6y ago
  I don't think there's anything unusual about being prepared to forgive someone who is contrite and has apologised, but not being able to if they are unrepentant. It's nothing like revenge.
  - thinkingemote 6y ago
    Forgiveness gives most benefit for yourself. If I forgive you, I feel better and can move on. If I don't forgive you until you do something I expect, then I will continue to feel worse and you will be the cause. It's better just to forgive. If someone has done wrong and they know it, they may not want to forgive themselves, but it shouldn't stop others forgiving them
wffurr 6y ago
This whole thread is a disaster of people not reading the article or even discussing it really. You are all instead just holding forth on your pet theories of shame/forgiveness/face-saving social interactions. It doesn't even have the benefit of being interesting or based on research. I do not forgive you all for not reading or discussing the article, at least not until you all apologize and post something interesting relevant to the article. I do, however, give myself permission to file this away under "topics HN can't reasonably discuss", which is unfortunate because the design of our social media systems, reifying cultural norms, is super important to today's society and discourse.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  I forgive you. Forgiveness doesn't start with an apology. I forgive you which makes me feel better and to let you know that you shouldn't feel bad. I also do not expect an apology nor for you to forgive me in return. Forgiveness is a gift.
  - wffurr 6y ago
    That's great. I'm happy for you. Do you want to discuss the article? e.g. forgiveness in the context of social media systems? What you're demonstrating is "performative forgiveness" in public, which is pretty counter to the usual experience of forgiveness in offline culture.

The author goes into that in the next section of the article. Forgiveness starts with an apology.

by wffurr 6y ago

The author goes into that in the next section of the article. Forgiveness starts with an apology.

Forgiveness also requires our being right. That's not a given. If not, it's not an apology, it's shouting at someone until they're too exhausted to defend themselves any more. So, we should start by not assuming that. Especially when large numbers of people agree with us.

jkoudys 6y ago
Forgiveness certainly does not require being correct. The "mistake" language is excellent, because it covers cases where you may not have been badgered at all. You could feel it was a mistake to post something based on its timing (eg a tasteless joke)
Dumblydorr 6y ago
Forgiveness doesn't require rightness. Consider Dumbledore's analysis of Percy Weasley abandoning his family: "it is easier to forgive others for being wrong than for being right." Unpacking, it means Percy knows he is wrong and it's much harder for him to swallow his pride because he is not right.

new2628 6y ago

> Forgiveness starts with an apology. This is often claimed, but I'm not sure I agree. Why can't I forgive someone who wronged me even if they didn't apologize? Or perhaps even if they don't see that they wronged me.

garraeth 6y ago

Forgiveness requiring an apology isn't true forgiveness, it's more akin to revenge. And if you wait for an apology, you'll never be able to forgive, remove that burden from yourself, from those who have wronged you who are dead. Many instances of anger and a lack of forgiveness are multi-generational - or even parent/child. People can rightly forgive without the other party even knowing about it. In fact, I'd argue the best kind of forgiveness is done completely silently, personally, and the only way anyone could figure you that you have forgiven someone is through your subsequent behavior.

JoeSmithson 6y ago
I don't think there's anything unusual about being prepared to forgive someone who is contrite and has apologised, but not being able to if they are unrepentant. It's nothing like revenge.
- thinkingemote 6y ago
  Forgiveness gives most benefit for yourself. If I forgive you, I feel better and can move on. If I don't forgive you until you do something I expect, then I will continue to feel worse and you will be the cause. It's better just to forgive. If someone has done wrong and they know it, they may not want to forgive themselves, but it shouldn't stop others forgiving them

wffurr 6y ago

This whole thread is a disaster of people not reading the article or even discussing it really. You are all instead just holding forth on your pet theories of shame/forgiveness/face-saving social interactions. It doesn't even have the benefit of being interesting or based on research. I do not forgive you all for not reading or discussing the article, at least not until you all apologize and post something interesting relevant to the article. I do, however, give myself permission to file this away under "topics HN can't reasonably discuss", which is unfortunate because the design of our social media systems, reifying cultural norms, is super important to today's society and discourse.

thinkingemote 6y ago
I forgive you. Forgiveness doesn't start with an apology. I forgive you which makes me feel better and to let you know that you shouldn't feel bad. I also do not expect an apology nor for you to forgive me in return. Forgiveness is a gift.
- wffurr 6y ago
  That's great. I'm happy for you. Do you want to discuss the article? e.g. forgiveness in the context of social media systems? What you're demonstrating is "performative forgiveness" in public, which is pretty counter to the usual experience of forgiveness in offline culture.