5 ms·

Forgiveness. Rather than encourage better behaviours of those targeted by the mob, it would be better to encourage better behaviours of the mob itself. Forgiv

Forgiveness. Rather than encourage better behaviours of those targeted by the mob, it would be better to encourage better behaviours of the mob itself. Forgiveness is absent in every social media or comment section and yet it's one of the crucial ways we get along with people. Having others visibly but perhaps silently forgive another would allow social proof that its okay to forgive this perceived offender. Forgiveness also allows a person to signal a change in views. Where before they would only be able to signal disapproval, now they can still pile on and be toxic but then later signal forgiveness. Not being able to correct and reflect upon your own potentially negative actions would be one of the aims. By forgiving others you can forgive yourself of past negativity. Forgiveness might say "I recognise you did something wrong. I do not expect public repentance, but I forgive you and go about my life feeling better".

HPsquared 6y ago
That's a very interesting thought. I wonder which other patterns of behaviour like this are absent from online communication. If the scheme set up by the website doesn't allow a certain action which would naturally occur in IRL interactions, this will distort how people and groups see each other and treat each other. Edit: I think the constant feedback provided by facial expressions is a huge thing missing from these things.
Spearchucker 6y ago
Agree. Forgiveness is great. It's where I started, which led to me questioning why I do it even. And the conclusion I came to was that the anger I felt was... useless, ineffectual and thus a total, unadulterated and complete waste of my time and energy. And so forgiveness led me to acceptance. Accepting all the things has made me very, very content. And occasionally even happy. Because who cares man. Frivolity aside, if I did care I feel I should DO something. Not complain or write angry diatribes or even forgive, but to physically do something to change the status quo. Whether that moves the needle on chosen issue or not. If I'm not willing to DO something about the thing I take issue with, I have no call to say anything about it either. Which brings this full circle back to... acceptance.
- darkerside 6y ago
  This is a great concept. It's one I've improved at a lot of my life, and I think many people would be happier if they did as well. Reminiscent of the serenity prayer. On the topic of things you can do, there's one thing that could actually be very effective. Don't public reply, but directly DM the person and explain how their person hurt or impacted you, not in a judgemental way, but in a way intended to share your personal experience. This often gets the poster to see others as people for long enough to recognize what they have done. And importantly, it gives them the space to retract or apologize without caving to the mob. And also, even if they never respond or acknowledge you, you've just given them a memory that may stay in their brain forever, and there are few things more powerful than that.
asjw 6y ago
There is no way that something that is not enforceable will succeed though. Plus forgiveness works only on then forgiver side, nothing stop others to keep doing what they are doing after you forgave them. I would argue that the main reason we get along is laws, not forgiveness. Any society has written (laws) and unwritten (social rules) norms that regulate the interactions between members. People don't yell in public, usually, because they've been taught it's wrong and people, generally, tend to respect what they've been taught on certain degrees, especially when it is easy to verify those teachings: nobody yells in public, those who do are reprimanded, it must really be a wrong thing to do. If you forgive someone yelling at kids because their basketball ended up in their garden you could feel better, but are enabling bad behaviour that should be challenged instead.
- tomcooks 6y ago
  > People don't yell in public, usually How do I know you're certainly not from Southern Europe?)
  - lostjohnny 6y ago
    I guess the original poster is Italian... Maybe it's about stereotypes still very strong against southern Europeans? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718933
    - tomcooks 6y ago
      I'm south European myself and spent months cycling the whole thing, out of love. It's a joke, hence the ) at the end.
  - asjw 6y ago
    Unfortunately for you I am exactly from southern Europe, from Rome in Italy to be precise. I think you should visit here, I would show you how much noise people from other countries make, especially Americans. I'm sure you made it as a joke and I don't mind it, but this stereotypes must stop, for a simple reason: there is more to Europe than jokes about southerners. We simply spend more time outside in the open because the weather is usually better, but any country has its weirdos, sometimes public is a park or an open market, sometimes it's a pub. Swedes scream from their windows at night https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogsta https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogsta Finns sweat a lot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity Danish leave their kids outside in the strollers in the cold while they are inside a caffè or buying groceries https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988 Germans wear sandals with socks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socks_and_sandals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socks_and_sandals English are dunk and violent https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/9/10-010910/en/ https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/9/10-010910/en/ French are rude and the fact that they try to hide it behind "other people don't understand us" makes it even more obvious. Ironically they think the anglofones are the loud ones and I mostly agree on this with them. And, of course, Americans are obese https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/share-of-adults-defined-as-obese-1-768x542.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/share-of-adults-d...
darkerside 6y ago
There's a special way to interact with systems. If you try to modify then crudely, without employing systems thinking, you will end up worse off than you were at the outset. And, certain changes are straight up impossible, including directly changing the behavior of the masses. Looked at through a systems thinking lens, the OP solution is quite good.
wffurr 6y ago
The author goes into that in the next section of the article. Forgiveness starts with an apology.
- yodelshady 6y ago
  Forgiveness also requires our being right. That's not a given. If not, it's not an apology, it's shouting at someone until they're too exhausted to defend themselves any more. So, we should start by not assuming that. Especially when large numbers of people agree with us.
  - jkoudys 6y ago
    Forgiveness certainly does not require being correct. The "mistake" language is excellent, because it covers cases where you may not have been badgered at all. You could feel it was a mistake to post something based on its timing (eg a tasteless joke)
  - Dumblydorr 6y ago
    Forgiveness doesn't require rightness. Consider Dumbledore's analysis of Percy Weasley abandoning his family: "it is easier to forgive others for being wrong than for being right." Unpacking, it means Percy knows he is wrong and it's much harder for him to swallow his pride because he is not right.
- new2628 6y ago
  > Forgiveness starts with an apology. This is often claimed, but I'm not sure I agree. Why can't I forgive someone who wronged me even if they didn't apologize? Or perhaps even if they don't see that they wronged me.
- garraeth 6y ago
  Forgiveness requiring an apology isn't true forgiveness, it's more akin to revenge. And if you wait for an apology, you'll never be able to forgive, remove that burden from yourself, from those who have wronged you who are dead. Many instances of anger and a lack of forgiveness are multi-generational - or even parent/child. People can rightly forgive without the other party even knowing about it. In fact, I'd argue the best kind of forgiveness is done completely silently, personally, and the only way anyone could figure you that you have forgiven someone is through your subsequent behavior.

HPsquared 6y ago

That's a very interesting thought. I wonder which other patterns of behaviour like this are absent from online communication. If the scheme set up by the website doesn't allow a certain action which would naturally occur in IRL interactions, this will distort how people and groups see each other and treat each other. Edit: I think the constant feedback provided by facial expressions is a huge thing missing from these things.

Spearchucker 6y ago

Agree. Forgiveness is great. It's where I started, which led to me questioning why I do it even. And the conclusion I came to was that the anger I felt was... useless, ineffectual and thus a total, unadulterated and complete waste of my time and energy. And so forgiveness led me to acceptance. Accepting all the things has made me very, very content. And occasionally even happy. Because who cares man. Frivolity aside, if I did care I feel I should DO something. Not complain or write angry diatribes or even forgive, but to physically do something to change the status quo. Whether that moves the needle on chosen issue or not. If I'm not willing to DO something about the thing I take issue with, I have no call to say anything about it either. Which brings this full circle back to... acceptance.

darkerside 6y ago
This is a great concept. It's one I've improved at a lot of my life, and I think many people would be happier if they did as well. Reminiscent of the serenity prayer. On the topic of things you can do, there's one thing that could actually be very effective. Don't public reply, but directly DM the person and explain how their person hurt or impacted you, not in a judgemental way, but in a way intended to share your personal experience. This often gets the poster to see others as people for long enough to recognize what they have done. And importantly, it gives them the space to retract or apologize without caving to the mob. And also, even if they never respond or acknowledge you, you've just given them a memory that may stay in their brain forever, and there are few things more powerful than that.

asjw 6y ago

There is no way that something that is not enforceable will succeed though. Plus forgiveness works only on then forgiver side, nothing stop others to keep doing what they are doing after you forgave them. I would argue that the main reason we get along is laws, not forgiveness. Any society has written (laws) and unwritten (social rules) norms that regulate the interactions between members. People don't yell in public, usually, because they've been taught it's wrong and people, generally, tend to respect what they've been taught on certain degrees, especially when it is easy to verify those teachings: nobody yells in public, those who do are reprimanded, it must really be a wrong thing to do. If you forgive someone yelling at kids because their basketball ended up in their garden you could feel better, but are enabling bad behaviour that should be challenged instead.

tomcooks 6y ago
> People don't yell in public, usually How do I know you're certainly not from Southern Europe?)
- lostjohnny 6y ago
  I guess the original poster is Italian... Maybe it's about stereotypes still very strong against southern Europeans? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718933 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23718933
  - tomcooks 6y ago
    I'm south European myself and spent months cycling the whole thing, out of love. It's a joke, hence the ) at the end.
- asjw 6y ago
  Unfortunately for you I am exactly from southern Europe, from Rome in Italy to be precise. I think you should visit here, I would show you how much noise people from other countries make, especially Americans. I'm sure you made it as a joke and I don't mind it, but this stereotypes must stop, for a simple reason: there is more to Europe than jokes about southerners. We simply spend more time outside in the open because the weather is usually better, but any country has its weirdos, sometimes public is a park or an open market, sometimes it's a pub. Swedes scream from their windows at night https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogsta https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogsta Finns sweat a lot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity Danish leave their kids outside in the strollers in the cold while they are inside a caffè or buying groceries https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988 Germans wear sandals with socks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socks_and_sandals https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socks_and_sandals English are dunk and violent https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/9/10-010910/en/ https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/88/9/10-010910/en/ French are rude and the fact that they try to hide it behind "other people don't understand us" makes it even more obvious. Ironically they think the anglofones are the loud ones and I mostly agree on this with them. And, of course, Americans are obese https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/share-of-adults-defined-as-obese-1-768x542.png https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2019/11/share-of-adults-d...

darkerside 6y ago

There's a special way to interact with systems. If you try to modify then crudely, without employing systems thinking, you will end up worse off than you were at the outset. And, certain changes are straight up impossible, including directly changing the behavior of the masses. Looked at through a systems thinking lens, the OP solution is quite good.

wffurr 6y ago

The author goes into that in the next section of the article. Forgiveness starts with an apology.

yodelshady 6y ago
Forgiveness also requires our being right. That's not a given. If not, it's not an apology, it's shouting at someone until they're too exhausted to defend themselves any more. So, we should start by not assuming that. Especially when large numbers of people agree with us.
- jkoudys 6y ago
  Forgiveness certainly does not require being correct. The "mistake" language is excellent, because it covers cases where you may not have been badgered at all. You could feel it was a mistake to post something based on its timing (eg a tasteless joke)
- Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Forgiveness doesn't require rightness. Consider Dumbledore's analysis of Percy Weasley abandoning his family: "it is easier to forgive others for being wrong than for being right." Unpacking, it means Percy knows he is wrong and it's much harder for him to swallow his pride because he is not right.
new2628 6y ago
> Forgiveness starts with an apology. This is often claimed, but I'm not sure I agree. Why can't I forgive someone who wronged me even if they didn't apologize? Or perhaps even if they don't see that they wronged me.
garraeth 6y ago
Forgiveness requiring an apology isn't true forgiveness, it's more akin to revenge. And if you wait for an apology, you'll never be able to forgive, remove that burden from yourself, from those who have wronged you who are dead. Many instances of anger and a lack of forgiveness are multi-generational - or even parent/child. People can rightly forgive without the other party even knowing about it. In fact, I'd argue the best kind of forgiveness is done completely silently, personally, and the only way anyone could figure you that you have forgiven someone is through your subsequent behavior.