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You had me, then you lost me. Hubris and the unwillingness to comprehend real problems and the desire to cover them up with "SHUT UP IT"S GREAT!" won't go down

You had me, then you lost me. Hubris and the unwillingness to comprehend real problems and the desire to cover them up with "SHUT UP IT"S GREAT!" won't go down well. What I'm seeing is more apologism for wrongful historical actions, perhaps in RESPONSE to what you described, but at this point it's become an "AMERICA IS GREAT SO SHUT UP"

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
It's not "SHUT UP IT"S GREAT!" so much as pointing out specifically why the claim that it isn't great is wrong, to which the responses were a moving of the goalposts to some other, generic wrongs against black people that haven't actually been specified and so can't be addressed.
- cookie_monsta 6y ago
  Patriotism is just as absurd as any other dogma to a person who doesn't share it. I think the US has done some great things as have most countries. It's when you start blindly believing it's perfect that it seems less than rational. > generic wrongs against black people that haven't actually been specified Surely you don't need to hear the list again?
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > It's when you start blindly believing it's perfect that it seems less than rational. Who said it was perfect? > Surely you don't need to hear the list again? Is there somewhere they keep this list? I keep getting partial versions. There's the ones where we list bad laws that haven't been on the books in many years, the ones (like police murders) that do literally happen but are dramatically less common than the level of attention would lead you to believe, the thing where people try to claim things with aggregate statistics without adjusting for confounders... I'm sure there are some legitimate ones, what I can't understand is why the focus is regularly on all these ones that evaporate upon examination. Maybe it's the toxoplasma thing, which I can't link to because SSC is gone. :(
    - cookie_monsta 6y ago
      Hmmm... let me guess: You got where you are 'cause you were the smartest and worked the hardest and won the race amongst equals?
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        Don't do that. Don't attack the speaker instead of the arguments. You don't know anything about me.
        cookie_monsta 6y ago
        It's nothing personal, merely an observation of the phenomena that it's hard/ uncomfortable to see the unfairness of a system of which you are clearly a benefactor. The idea that everybody's equal starting... now! is lovely if you can ignore the fact that some people have a 500 year head start.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        > The idea that everybody's equal starting... now! is lovely if you can ignore the fact that some people have a 600 year head start. Except that nobody is claiming that, and even if they were, you would then be having a class dispute rather than a race dispute anyway.
        cookie_monsta 6y ago
        So if you understand how historic injustice leads to present day disadvantage then there's no point distracting from the discussion by claiming to be bewildered by the fundamentals. I agree that class distinctions are becoming less useful except if you define class in terms of opportunity in which case it's hard to argue that it and race live in two completely separate petri dishes.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
darawk 6y ago
Nobody is saying "America is great shut up". America has very serious problems, both currently and historically. The point of this piece and the other commenters in this thread in defending America is not that we should ignore the problems. It's that we should work towards fixing them in a positive way, not a "fuck America" sort of way.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

It's not "SHUT UP IT"S GREAT!" so much as pointing out specifically why the claim that it isn't great is wrong, to which the responses were a moving of the goalposts to some other, generic wrongs against black people that haven't actually been specified and so can't be addressed.

cookie_monsta 6y ago
Patriotism is just as absurd as any other dogma to a person who doesn't share it. I think the US has done some great things as have most countries. It's when you start blindly believing it's perfect that it seems less than rational. > generic wrongs against black people that haven't actually been specified Surely you don't need to hear the list again?
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > It's when you start blindly believing it's perfect that it seems less than rational. Who said it was perfect? > Surely you don't need to hear the list again? Is there somewhere they keep this list? I keep getting partial versions. There's the ones where we list bad laws that haven't been on the books in many years, the ones (like police murders) that do literally happen but are dramatically less common than the level of attention would lead you to believe, the thing where people try to claim things with aggregate statistics without adjusting for confounders... I'm sure there are some legitimate ones, what I can't understand is why the focus is regularly on all these ones that evaporate upon examination. Maybe it's the toxoplasma thing, which I can't link to because SSC is gone. :(
  - cookie_monsta 6y ago
    Hmmm... let me guess: You got where you are 'cause you were the smartest and worked the hardest and won the race amongst equals?
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      Don't do that. Don't attack the speaker instead of the arguments. You don't know anything about me.
      - cookie_monsta 6y ago
        It's nothing personal, merely an observation of the phenomena that it's hard/ uncomfortable to see the unfairness of a system of which you are clearly a benefactor. The idea that everybody's equal starting... now! is lovely if you can ignore the fact that some people have a 500 year head start.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        > The idea that everybody's equal starting... now! is lovely if you can ignore the fact that some people have a 600 year head start. Except that nobody is claiming that, and even if they were, you would then be having a class dispute rather than a race dispute anyway.
        cookie_monsta 6y ago
        So if you understand how historic injustice leads to present day disadvantage then there's no point distracting from the discussion by claiming to be bewildered by the fundamentals. I agree that class distinctions are becoming less useful except if you define class in terms of opportunity in which case it's hard to argue that it and race live in two completely separate petri dishes.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago

darawk 6y ago

Nobody is saying "America is great shut up". America has very serious problems, both currently and historically. The point of this piece and the other commenters in this thread in defending America is not that we should ignore the problems. It's that we should work towards fixing them in a positive way, not a "fuck America" sort of way.