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DAB is useless because : FM audio quality is enough (actually the bottleneck is the digital compression used in radio studios) ; the FM spectrum isn't saturated

DAB is useless because : FM audio quality is enough (actually the bottleneck is the digital compression used in radio studios) ; the FM spectrum isn't saturated ; FM receivers are simple and cheap, it would be absurd to force people to buy new receivers and trash their fully functional radios. An important part of FM listening is in cars, and a lot of cars have custom proprietary radio trays or proprietery interfaces for hand commands buttons. Signal degradation is progressive in FM, but very irritating in DAB.

toyg 6y ago
> FM audio quality is enough I really disagree there. The difference in quality between FM and DAB (not even DAB+) is very significant, and I’m not even an audiophile. The problem is that 1) you don’t know it until you actually make the switch, and it’s not like you can borrow a car stereo system for a week to try it out, and 2) that’s pretty much the only advantage of DAB, from consumers’ perspective, so the price/value proposition is not good enough to make it a no-brainer purchase.
- corty 6y ago
  The difference is only significant if the radio station uses a sufficient bitrate. There are some with atrocious quality in DAB because of their low bitrate.
  - ooklala 6y ago
    I can only speak for the UK, but FM here sounds considerably better than DAB because stations on DAB are usually 32 or 64kbps & mono since they want to fit as many stations into the multiplex... (techmoan has a rant about it— https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27w3quNTP84 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27w3quNTP84)
- iso947 6y ago
  I had an early dab radio back in 2003ish, it was rubbish. I have dab/FM in the car now, and It’s noticeably better than FM. I use dab almost exclusively, but there are remote areas where only fm reaches.
- dtgriscom 6y ago
  > you don’t know it until you actually make the switch A perhaps philosophical question: if you have to train yourself to be able to perceive the higher-quality audio, do you end up enjoying the audio more, or are you just training yourself to dislike the lower-quality audio?
  - raverbashing 6y ago
    The first one It's similar to listening to a song over good headphones instead of crappy notebook speakers for example You start hearing all the details that were added to the sound. It's like seeing a movie on the cinema rather than in a small TV for example
    - Retric 6y ago
      Additional details is not always a net plus, IMO some recordings are significantly worse with ‘better’ audio equipment. For example the sounds of people repositioning their hands across musical instruments really bothers me.
      - heavenlyblue 6y ago
        > For example the sounds of people repositioning their hands across musical instruments really bothers me. Would you prefer to be blind because if you can see you can also see a dead body?
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        Retric 6y ago
        Blindness is a straw man argument. I am saying for specific content there are limits to optimum resolution. If we are talking high vs low resolution, then no I don’t want to see extremely high resolution in focus pictures of corpses. Do you?
        6y ago
- puzzlingcaptcha 6y ago
  >I really disagree there. The difference in quality between FM and DAB (not even DAB+) is very significant, and I’m not even an audiophile. It might be appreciable at home, does it still apply in a moving vehicle? I personally can't tell the difference.
  - giobox 6y ago
    I imagine for quite a few readers, car may be fanciest sound system they own and one of the only places they listen to FM radio in the first place. The extremely low bit rate used to broadcast some DAB stations is absolutely noticeable even on “cheap” equipment. The low bitrate issue is compounded further by DAB being mpeg 2 based, which is a hugely inefficient codec by modern audio standards. A 64 Kbps mono mpeg 2 audio stream is not great frankly, and common in DAB.
- gertrunde 6y ago
  With good signal strength, DAB wins over FM easily, but it degrades horrifically badly with weaker signal strength, generally I tend to find this isn't that much of an issue with BBC stations, but worse with the commercial stations, and especially worse in a moving vehicle. (Not that the UK commercial radio space is exactly in a good place anyway after the global/bauer radio-pocalypse).
- jankiehodgpodge 6y ago
  Depends on the station. Some stations are broadcasting 32Kbit mono audio which certainly doesn't stand up to FM.
- switch007 6y ago
  Maybe I’m weird but some songs sound better on FM. Eg Bruce Springsteen Born to Run. Maybe it’s nostalgia kicking in
tinus_hn 6y ago
CDs are useless because: Cassette tapes are good enough and they can be recorded. A lot of cars have cassette players, not CD players and they never skip.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  You're being downvoted, but I think the comparison is worth considering. For the average car sound-system, I doubt the quality improvement from the cassette->CD upgrade is going to be all that appreciable. The upgrade to CD only makes sense for a decent sound-system, or if cassettes are no longer available. This seems comparable to the FM->DAB (or DAB+) upgrade. I don't know about the usage patterns here, but I suspect radio is more often used in vehicles than at home with nice speakers, or with headphones. Perhaps it's different from CD/cassette in that regard, or perhaps not.
  - techphys_91 6y ago
    To me, the primary benefit of CDs over tapes was the ability to skip between songs easily and not having to rewind, it wasnt about quality (for me). The operation of a digital radio and an FM radio are very similar, especially once you've set up your favourite stations.
    - beenBoutIT 6y ago
      Still waiting for radio that adds enough buffer to allow skipping ahead or rewinding. Somehow mainstream commercial radios(cars, portable, etc.) have avoided adopting the audio equivalent of the DVR. After becoming accustomed to watching TV with a DVR there's a knee-jerk reaction when listening to the radio and the impulse to rewind hits.
      - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
        It may be that they don't think anyone would use that feature, so it would be extra expenditure for nothing. If you want more control and the guarantee of no adverts, you can pay for a music streaming subscription.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
It's not about quality, it's about freeing up frequencies for technologies that use the frequency more efficiently. DAB can cram more channels in less frequency space; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting#Use_of_frequency_spectrum_and_transmitter_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting#Use... for details.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  So quantity over quality. The UK used to have 4-5 analogue TV stations (the fifth wasn't available everywhere), now it has digital with something like 100+ channels all constantly broadcasting low quality, repetitive rubbish. We got rid of the analogue stations to make way for "+1" channels where they broadcast the same thing 1 hour later. It's a complete waste of the spectrum.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  Who cares about a 20 MHz chunk of spectrum near 100 MHz? It's too narrow to be of much use to anyone but FM broadcasters, and the required RF hardware and antennas are too big for most two-way consumer applications. And there's certainly no shortage of VHF spectrum in general, now that most users have gone to 700 MHz+. Ultimately, cognitive radio is the correct answer to all questions about how to get the most utility out of the existing spectrum. The only question is whether we'll get cognitive radio or unlimited fusion power first. :(
mdiesel 6y ago
In my limited experience, driving across the UK on FM is a pain due to regional differences. A couple of hours driving and I'll need to retune a few times, and my saved stations won't be applicable. DAB solves that minor issue at least. I don't know the details of the spectrum usage, but there are more niche nationwide stations on DAB (Planet Rock is hardly niche anymore tbh, and is great). So maybe it's more accurate to say the FM spectrum isn't cluttered for barrier to entry reasons.
- switch007 6y ago
  Exactly the same experience. I try DAB every few years while driving and the experience is just the same.
- blattimwind 6y ago
  > DAB solves that minor issue at least. Enter Germany, where it was decided DAB is not a federal matter and basically you have 16 small states with entirely different stations available on DAB. The one real advantage DAB could have had, and they threw it away just to auction off the same frequency band a couple more times.
gertrunde 6y ago
On the car side - Most new cars I've been in for the last 3-4 years, maybe more, tend to come with DAB radio built in. Sometimes it's an optional extra, but standard in an increasingly large proportion of new cars. (Apparently 95% of new UK cars, and 64% of new commercial vehicles in Q4 2019, vs 4% in Q4 2010, 64% Q4 2015). Agreed on the degradation though.

toyg 6y ago

> FM audio quality is enough I really disagree there. The difference in quality between FM and DAB (not even DAB+) is very significant, and I’m not even an audiophile. The problem is that 1) you don’t know it until you actually make the switch, and it’s not like you can borrow a car stereo system for a week to try it out, and 2) that’s pretty much the only advantage of DAB, from consumers’ perspective, so the price/value proposition is not good enough to make it a no-brainer purchase.

corty 6y ago
The difference is only significant if the radio station uses a sufficient bitrate. There are some with atrocious quality in DAB because of their low bitrate.
- ooklala 6y ago
  I can only speak for the UK, but FM here sounds considerably better than DAB because stations on DAB are usually 32 or 64kbps & mono since they want to fit as many stations into the multiplex... (techmoan has a rant about it— https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27w3quNTP84 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27w3quNTP84)
iso947 6y ago
I had an early dab radio back in 2003ish, it was rubbish. I have dab/FM in the car now, and It’s noticeably better than FM. I use dab almost exclusively, but there are remote areas where only fm reaches.
dtgriscom 6y ago
> you don’t know it until you actually make the switch A perhaps philosophical question: if you have to train yourself to be able to perceive the higher-quality audio, do you end up enjoying the audio more, or are you just training yourself to dislike the lower-quality audio?
- raverbashing 6y ago
  The first one It's similar to listening to a song over good headphones instead of crappy notebook speakers for example You start hearing all the details that were added to the sound. It's like seeing a movie on the cinema rather than in a small TV for example
  - Retric 6y ago
    Additional details is not always a net plus, IMO some recordings are significantly worse with ‘better’ audio equipment. For example the sounds of people repositioning their hands across musical instruments really bothers me.
    - heavenlyblue 6y ago
      > For example the sounds of people repositioning their hands across musical instruments really bothers me. Would you prefer to be blind because if you can see you can also see a dead body?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - Retric 6y ago
        Blindness is a straw man argument. I am saying for specific content there are limits to optimum resolution. If we are talking high vs low resolution, then no I don’t want to see extremely high resolution in focus pictures of corpses. Do you?
        6y ago
puzzlingcaptcha 6y ago
>I really disagree there. The difference in quality between FM and DAB (not even DAB+) is very significant, and I’m not even an audiophile. It might be appreciable at home, does it still apply in a moving vehicle? I personally can't tell the difference.
- giobox 6y ago
  I imagine for quite a few readers, car may be fanciest sound system they own and one of the only places they listen to FM radio in the first place. The extremely low bit rate used to broadcast some DAB stations is absolutely noticeable even on “cheap” equipment. The low bitrate issue is compounded further by DAB being mpeg 2 based, which is a hugely inefficient codec by modern audio standards. A 64 Kbps mono mpeg 2 audio stream is not great frankly, and common in DAB.
gertrunde 6y ago
With good signal strength, DAB wins over FM easily, but it degrades horrifically badly with weaker signal strength, generally I tend to find this isn't that much of an issue with BBC stations, but worse with the commercial stations, and especially worse in a moving vehicle. (Not that the UK commercial radio space is exactly in a good place anyway after the global/bauer radio-pocalypse).
jankiehodgpodge 6y ago
Depends on the station. Some stations are broadcasting 32Kbit mono audio which certainly doesn't stand up to FM.
switch007 6y ago
Maybe I’m weird but some songs sound better on FM. Eg Bruce Springsteen Born to Run. Maybe it’s nostalgia kicking in

tinus_hn 6y ago

CDs are useless because: Cassette tapes are good enough and they can be recorded. A lot of cars have cassette players, not CD players and they never skip.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
You're being downvoted, but I think the comparison is worth considering. For the average car sound-system, I doubt the quality improvement from the cassette->CD upgrade is going to be all that appreciable. The upgrade to CD only makes sense for a decent sound-system, or if cassettes are no longer available. This seems comparable to the FM->DAB (or DAB+) upgrade. I don't know about the usage patterns here, but I suspect radio is more often used in vehicles than at home with nice speakers, or with headphones. Perhaps it's different from CD/cassette in that regard, or perhaps not.
- techphys_91 6y ago
  To me, the primary benefit of CDs over tapes was the ability to skip between songs easily and not having to rewind, it wasnt about quality (for me). The operation of a digital radio and an FM radio are very similar, especially once you've set up your favourite stations.
  - beenBoutIT 6y ago
    Still waiting for radio that adds enough buffer to allow skipping ahead or rewinding. Somehow mainstream commercial radios(cars, portable, etc.) have avoided adopting the audio equivalent of the DVR. After becoming accustomed to watching TV with a DVR there's a knee-jerk reaction when listening to the radio and the impulse to rewind hits.
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      It may be that they don't think anyone would use that feature, so it would be extra expenditure for nothing. If you want more control and the guarantee of no adverts, you can pay for a music streaming subscription.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

It's not about quality, it's about freeing up frequencies for technologies that use the frequency more efficiently. DAB can cram more channels in less frequency space; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting#Use_of_frequency_spectrum_and_transmitter_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting#Use... for details.

globular-toast 6y ago
So quantity over quality. The UK used to have 4-5 analogue TV stations (the fifth wasn't available everywhere), now it has digital with something like 100+ channels all constantly broadcasting low quality, repetitive rubbish. We got rid of the analogue stations to make way for "+1" channels where they broadcast the same thing 1 hour later. It's a complete waste of the spectrum.
CamperBob2 6y ago
Who cares about a 20 MHz chunk of spectrum near 100 MHz? It's too narrow to be of much use to anyone but FM broadcasters, and the required RF hardware and antennas are too big for most two-way consumer applications. And there's certainly no shortage of VHF spectrum in general, now that most users have gone to 700 MHz+. Ultimately, cognitive radio is the correct answer to all questions about how to get the most utility out of the existing spectrum. The only question is whether we'll get cognitive radio or unlimited fusion power first. :(

mdiesel 6y ago

In my limited experience, driving across the UK on FM is a pain due to regional differences. A couple of hours driving and I'll need to retune a few times, and my saved stations won't be applicable. DAB solves that minor issue at least. I don't know the details of the spectrum usage, but there are more niche nationwide stations on DAB (Planet Rock is hardly niche anymore tbh, and is great). So maybe it's more accurate to say the FM spectrum isn't cluttered for barrier to entry reasons.

switch007 6y ago
Exactly the same experience. I try DAB every few years while driving and the experience is just the same.
blattimwind 6y ago
> DAB solves that minor issue at least. Enter Germany, where it was decided DAB is not a federal matter and basically you have 16 small states with entirely different stations available on DAB. The one real advantage DAB could have had, and they threw it away just to auction off the same frequency band a couple more times.

gertrunde 6y ago

On the car side - Most new cars I've been in for the last 3-4 years, maybe more, tend to come with DAB radio built in. Sometimes it's an optional extra, but standard in an increasingly large proportion of new cars. (Apparently 95% of new UK cars, and 64% of new commercial vehicles in Q4 2019, vs 4% in Q4 2010, 64% Q4 2015). Agreed on the degradation though.