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When you consider the energy required to produce lithium ion batteries they are actually worse than fuel cells from an emissions perspective: “As an example, a
by jasonlaramburu 6y ago
When you consider the energy required to produce lithium ion batteries they are actually worse than fuel cells from an emissions perspective:
“As an example, a 100kWh battery will give a potential range of 250 miles and, in order to produce that battery, it will take around 20 tonnes of CO2,” he said. “A typical battery lasts for 150,000 miles, so that equates to around 83g/km of CO2. Then, when you take into account charging over that same distance, the same battery car will deliver 124g/km of CO2 over its lifetime.”
By comparison, Auto Express says that a recent study found that a Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel cell car produces around 120g/km of CO2 over its lifetime when the manufacturing process is taken into account. But if hydrogen were to be produced by renewable energy, that figure could be reduced significantly.”
Source: https://www.theweek.co.uk/electric-cars/101196/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vs-battery-electric-cars-which-are-better https://www.theweek.co.uk/electric-cars/101196/hydrogen-fuel...
- Ottolay 6y agoThe lithium and other metals in that battery though can be recycled at its end of life. Subsequent batteries will have lower life cycle carbon footprint.
- mcot2 6y ago1.) There is already tech in development for batteries to last 1M miles. https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/11/catl-million-mile-battery-electric-cars/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/11/catl-million-mile-batter... 2.) Energy required to produce the batteries will eventually shift to zero emission sources. 3.) Materials can be recycled from the battery even after its million+ mile use. It’s hard to overcome the energy required to produce hydrogen plus the bad efficiency of fuel cells compared to batteries/electric motors.
- jasonlaramburu 6y agoGreen energy will decarbonize hydrogen production as well.
- kolinko 6y agoHow are those emissions calculated? Is there anything in the process that needs to generate co2? (like in concrete, where production of concrete generates co2 by itself). If this co2 is due to electricity/transportation cost then the problem will solve itself with more electricity from green sources.
- jasonlaramburu 6y agoCouldn’t you make the exact same argument about hydrogen? As renewables grow the emissions associated with hydrogen production will come down too.
- sorenbs 6y agoSure, but the total system loss for hydrogen is much higher, so unless renewable electricity becomes free, batteries win on tco.
- sorenbs 6y agoSounds like you need to follow Auke on Twitter :-P He has literally spent the last five years debunking this nonsense. Here's a thread from just 5 hours ago: https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1279359481177083904 https://twitter.com/AukeHoekstra/status/1279359481177083904 TL;DR: These comparisons always use too much energy for battery production, too high efficiency for gasoline cars, and fail to take into account that the grid is rapidly decarbonising, even in backwater countries like USA. Your source claims 20 tonnes for battery production, but reality is around 6 tonnes and falling due to grid decarbonising.
- jasonlaramburu 6y agoThose figures cited by Auke are self-reported by Tesla. Not saying that invalidates them but important to consider context. It would seem that emissions associated with battery production vary greatly depending on geography and mix of energy sources. Eg in Germany, emissions from Model 3 battery production are estimated at 11 to 15 tonnes per vehicle: https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/mostly-false-electric-cars-generate-higher-emissions-than-diesel-cars/ https://eufactcheck.eu/factcheck/mostly-false-electric-cars-...
- sorenbs 6y agoThe 11-15 Tonnes come from the study that you referenced page is disputing? There is a persistent narrative in Germany that diesel cars are better for the environment, and your comment is playing into that. This narrative is wrong and damaging. Why are you doing this?
- jasonlaramburu 6y agoThe paper didn’t dispute anything. It made the point that emissions from battery production depend on the local mix of energy sources. At the time of publication, Germany got 1/3 of its energy mix from coal, hence batteries produced there have a higher emissions profile. What am I ‘doing’ exactly, pointing out a fact that there is no ‘free lunch’ when reducing emissions?
- Andys 6y agoThat is interesting because 20 tonnes is hardly anything for a home solar system to offset, with PV panels on the roof.