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The author of this article does not know what encryption is. He's mad that proprietary audio codecs can be used on amateur radio bands, but the codecs are docu

The author of this article does not know what encryption is. He's mad that proprietary audio codecs can be used on amateur radio bands, but the codecs are documented in the patent applications (since expired) so no encryption is occurring. It's like not knowing that you need an MP3 player to listen to MP3s. That's not encryption, that's not having an MP3 player.

giantg2 6y ago
How would you define encryption? I would say it's encoding of information so that unauthorized people are less likely to have access to the information . Like I said in my original post, you can look into encryption in the amatuer bands. This article is one example. If you've taken encryption courses then you know that XOR can be a cipher, it's just not secure. The same way a lock on your shed is only going to keep curious people out and not real criminals, the same can be said for lesser forms of encryption. Please look into Kenwood AES/DES models that operate in the VHF/UHF amatuer bands if you still have any doubts about the use of encryption. There are various 40, 56, etc bit encryption schemes as well.
- jrockway 6y ago
  Encrypted communication is communication that is indecipherable if you know the encryption algorithm but don't have the key material. Not knowing the algorithm is a separate thing. In the case of D-STAR, the algorithm is well known, it's just not analog FM. People with FM receivers would be just as upset to hear two people talking with SSB or CW, both perfectly legal on VHF. Over on HF, digital modes like FT8 are quite popular. You will never be able to decode that without a computer, but that doesn't make it illegal (or encrypted). The algorithm is well defined and it's ~100x more bandwidth efficient than SSB voice. Kenwood sells AES radios for non-amateur communications. It's perfectly legal for non-amateur licensees to encrypt their radio links. Your cell phone is doing it right now! Yes, you can use those on the amateur bands if you want. It's against the rules. The reason amateur radio exists is because we follow the rules. It can all disappear overnight if you violate them. There are a few well-known bad apples that make it harder for all of us. It's not to be encouraged.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Standard cell phones do not use encryption. You can intercept calls if you have receivers on the right frequency and using the right tech (believe they are trunked). I'm not advocating that they use true encryption in the ham bands, but it does exist. As I said before, there is information out there about how voice is digitized, how psuedo or weak encryption works (DMR, 40 bit, 56 bit), and then you can use standard encryption practices to encrypt it. The OPs question was about where he can find technical info on encrypting voice communications and I said this would be a good starting point. This is a valid contribution to his question. I am sorry if you do not believe that weak encryption (where you know all possible keys, or the keys are small) is not encryption.
    - nullc 6y ago
      > Standard cell phones do not use encryption. Yes they do. Decades ago they didn't. Today there are devices that use active attacks to downgrade the encryption by impersonating a base station. It's also possible to crack the encryption used by GSM, but I believe the base station impersonation attacks are much more common.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Do you have any source for cell encryption? I believe they are not encrypted, but use a few thousand channels on a trunked system.
      - dahi1203 6y ago
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  - nullc 6y ago
    > In the case of D-STAR, the algorithm is well known, it's just not analog FM For a long time the audio codec was only available in a chip (technically a readout protected microcontroller). There are patents on the audio codec, but they didn't disclose enough of it to decode it, only enough to make it unlawful for other people to publish compatible implementations (which, of course, kept the resources available for reverse engineering low). For a while I contemplated selling bespoke custom versions of Opus as a bit of performance art under licensing where the first copy cost $500 and all further copies cost $1,000,000 with some marketing copy about keeping lids off your repeaters. ... just to see how the FCC would react. Considering that they let AMBE use get away with it, as the old joke goes: We've already established what kind of licensing regime they'll permit-- pay to access encrypted audio-- my performance art differed only by the price. :) > The reason amateur radio exists is because we follow the rules. It can all disappear overnight if you violate them. There are a few well-known bad apples that make it harder for all of us. It's not to be encouraged. Personally, particularly on bands above 70cm, I think the prohibition against encryption is killing amateur radio. The lack of encryption for signals that would be naturally point to point anyway and disturb no one inhibits a lot community use, and the relative non-usage of these allocations risks use losing them. I'd much rather see a rule that allowed encryption on 33cm+ subject to the constraint that stations have to be identified, non-profit in nature, cooperate with local coordination, and act as secondary users to non-encrypted uses.
JohnStrangeII 6y ago
In the context of HAM radio transmissions, encryption includes voice scrambling methods that we wouldn't nowadays consider secure encryption. There used to be a lot of analogue voice scramblers and voice inversion tools. I think you can still buy them. Generally, there is a prohibition against obscuring transmissions on HAM radio. (Or at least I think so, I'm not a HAM operator myself.)
- giantg2 6y ago
  Yep. There are some manufacturers that offer AES 256 encryption capable encryption too. I think that's still generally secure.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Why is this downvoted? Kenwood is one of the manufactures that has AES 256 radios capable of transmitting in the ham bands. NIST still considers AES 256 secure.
    - JshWright 6y ago
      Not sure why it was being downvoted, but saying "AES 256" is secure is both true and meaningless. It's a low level building block of cryptosystems, and there are countless examples of AES based systems being compromised because the system built around it had flaws.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        Yeah, I guess the algorithm is secure but how it's implemented may not be. I think the NSA was involved with at least some radio manufacturers implementation, so there could be a backdoor.
      - dahi1203 6y ago
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giantg2 6y ago

How would you define encryption? I would say it's encoding of information so that unauthorized people are less likely to have access to the information . Like I said in my original post, you can look into encryption in the amatuer bands. This article is one example. If you've taken encryption courses then you know that XOR can be a cipher, it's just not secure. The same way a lock on your shed is only going to keep curious people out and not real criminals, the same can be said for lesser forms of encryption. Please look into Kenwood AES/DES models that operate in the VHF/UHF amatuer bands if you still have any doubts about the use of encryption. There are various 40, 56, etc bit encryption schemes as well.

jrockway 6y ago
Encrypted communication is communication that is indecipherable if you know the encryption algorithm but don't have the key material. Not knowing the algorithm is a separate thing. In the case of D-STAR, the algorithm is well known, it's just not analog FM. People with FM receivers would be just as upset to hear two people talking with SSB or CW, both perfectly legal on VHF. Over on HF, digital modes like FT8 are quite popular. You will never be able to decode that without a computer, but that doesn't make it illegal (or encrypted). The algorithm is well defined and it's ~100x more bandwidth efficient than SSB voice. Kenwood sells AES radios for non-amateur communications. It's perfectly legal for non-amateur licensees to encrypt their radio links. Your cell phone is doing it right now! Yes, you can use those on the amateur bands if you want. It's against the rules. The reason amateur radio exists is because we follow the rules. It can all disappear overnight if you violate them. There are a few well-known bad apples that make it harder for all of us. It's not to be encouraged.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Standard cell phones do not use encryption. You can intercept calls if you have receivers on the right frequency and using the right tech (believe they are trunked). I'm not advocating that they use true encryption in the ham bands, but it does exist. As I said before, there is information out there about how voice is digitized, how psuedo or weak encryption works (DMR, 40 bit, 56 bit), and then you can use standard encryption practices to encrypt it. The OPs question was about where he can find technical info on encrypting voice communications and I said this would be a good starting point. This is a valid contribution to his question. I am sorry if you do not believe that weak encryption (where you know all possible keys, or the keys are small) is not encryption.
  - nullc 6y ago
    > Standard cell phones do not use encryption. Yes they do. Decades ago they didn't. Today there are devices that use active attacks to downgrade the encryption by impersonating a base station. It's also possible to crack the encryption used by GSM, but I believe the base station impersonation attacks are much more common.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Do you have any source for cell encryption? I believe they are not encrypted, but use a few thousand channels on a trunked system.
    - dahi1203 6y ago
      such a nice work modlelo.com
- nullc 6y ago
  > In the case of D-STAR, the algorithm is well known, it's just not analog FM For a long time the audio codec was only available in a chip (technically a readout protected microcontroller). There are patents on the audio codec, but they didn't disclose enough of it to decode it, only enough to make it unlawful for other people to publish compatible implementations (which, of course, kept the resources available for reverse engineering low). For a while I contemplated selling bespoke custom versions of Opus as a bit of performance art under licensing where the first copy cost $500 and all further copies cost $1,000,000 with some marketing copy about keeping lids off your repeaters. ... just to see how the FCC would react. Considering that they let AMBE use get away with it, as the old joke goes: We've already established what kind of licensing regime they'll permit-- pay to access encrypted audio-- my performance art differed only by the price. :) > The reason amateur radio exists is because we follow the rules. It can all disappear overnight if you violate them. There are a few well-known bad apples that make it harder for all of us. It's not to be encouraged. Personally, particularly on bands above 70cm, I think the prohibition against encryption is killing amateur radio. The lack of encryption for signals that would be naturally point to point anyway and disturb no one inhibits a lot community use, and the relative non-usage of these allocations risks use losing them. I'd much rather see a rule that allowed encryption on 33cm+ subject to the constraint that stations have to be identified, non-profit in nature, cooperate with local coordination, and act as secondary users to non-encrypted uses.

JohnStrangeII 6y ago

In the context of HAM radio transmissions, encryption includes voice scrambling methods that we wouldn't nowadays consider secure encryption. There used to be a lot of analogue voice scramblers and voice inversion tools. I think you can still buy them. Generally, there is a prohibition against obscuring transmissions on HAM radio. (Or at least I think so, I'm not a HAM operator myself.)

giantg2 6y ago
Yep. There are some manufacturers that offer AES 256 encryption capable encryption too. I think that's still generally secure.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Why is this downvoted? Kenwood is one of the manufactures that has AES 256 radios capable of transmitting in the ham bands. NIST still considers AES 256 secure.
  - JshWright 6y ago
    Not sure why it was being downvoted, but saying "AES 256" is secure is both true and meaningless. It's a low level building block of cryptosystems, and there are countless examples of AES based systems being compromised because the system built around it had flaws.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Yeah, I guess the algorithm is secure but how it's implemented may not be. I think the NSA was involved with at least some radio manufacturers implementation, so there could be a backdoor.
    - dahi1203 6y ago
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