4 ms·

As soon as you dive into what's offensive or not, you'll start discriminating ideologies and religions as well. Denying this request might be denying that perso

As soon as you dive into what's offensive or not, you'll start discriminating ideologies and religions as well. Denying this request might be denying that persons religion/ideology, while accepting it, is offensive to others who don't belong to the religion/ideology. Don't think you can win here really.

luckylion 6y ago
> As soon as you dive into what's offensive or not, you'll start discriminating ideologies and religions as well. Isn't that super common in 2020, and has always been very common? We've always judged ideologies and religions, think National Socialism, Stalinism or Scientology. Does the person belonging to that group being in solitary confinement change that?
- egeozcan 6y ago
  Calling something out for being offensive here means that I'd like see other opinions. At the very least, I thought it was. I didn't call to action against this request. I didn't send them a request to take it down, no authorities involved, nothing serious really. I just found it offensive, and thought it would be interesting for others to see, my expectation was to see interesting takes on the subject. Not everyone you see on the internet who says they are offended is part of the so-called "cancel culture". I'm surely not. I'd suggest everyone to relax.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    I agree with you and send kudos your way for raising the conversation. I have no skin in the game really, and earlier comment is just my side of the coin, love to see others as well. And I echo the idea of everyone to relax. Just because someone is flagging something as potentially offensive doesn't mean they want it removed from the surface of the earth. Plenty of things are offensive but should still be visible/readable.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that you wanted to cancel anyone. I find it completely normal to take offense and to say so, and I think it speaks for the inability of the HN community to tolerate dissenting opinions that your comment was flagged.
    - sukilot 6y ago
      It's pretty gruesome to watch someome go out of their way take casual pot-shots at someone trapped in a torture cell just because the person used wording that isn't the peak of diplomacy. HN has basic standards of human decency; it's not a 100% free speech zone.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Let's not pretend that it would have been flagged if the request was different. HN heavily leans liberal, and Muslim is a protected identity. I don't believe that it would have played out the same if it had been a similar request that suggests it's a white supremacist, but you're free to tell yourself that.
      - egeozcan 6y ago
        I didn't "take casual pot-shots", I found it interesting that they didn't discriminate against offensive stuff. I'd not want them to, but I expected them to. Have the decency to understand what the other may have been trying to say first, as not all of us are native English speakers. I don't have a problem with that poor person, I have a problem with the idea, yes, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.
- capableweb 6y ago
  > Isn't that super common in 2020, and has always been very common I think it depends on your location really. In some places, and in the right environment, you can be a proclaimed communist and have a normal conversation with someone who is a proclaimed nazi. It's usually tough and with some heated arguments, but it is indeed possible. From the outside though, I think the people in the US have lost that ability, which you are now seeing the effect of.
  - egeozcan 6y ago
    I'm not from the US and I'm very confused about how strong the reactions are. I certainly wasn't trying to start a revolt against a random poor guy here. It may be shocking to people but I judge people according to what they do and say. They judge me too. We don't try to "cancel" each other. I'm an immigrant living in Germany, coming from a Muslim family, and I've been to the stands of AfD, and I judged them, yes, because what they are trying to accomplish is offending to me. I didn't call the police, no. Not because they'd laugh me off anyways, I'd not try silencing them even if I had power to do so.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > It's usually tough and with some heated arguments, but it is indeed possible. Sure, but both the Communist and the Nazi will judge each other's ideology, and very openly tell them apart from "the rest" of possible ideologies. A catholic from one catholic sect will usually have fewer issues with somebody from another catholic sect or even a protestant, than a pagan. I don't think there is a place or point in time where everybody is essentially saying "that's your opinion, okay, whatever" with regards to ideologies and religions that aren't their own. Whether that discrimination will lead to oppression and violence is another issue, but surely everyone has an opinion on whether something is (factually and/or morally) wrong or right, and when they feel safe enough, they will say so. I agree with your perception that it seems to have become harder to tolerate people of different convictions, though I don't think the US is unique in that way, it's just more in the open there, and their much more pronounced idea of freedom of speech and fewer labor laws make it easier to "cancel" someone, which in turn makes increases the frequency of it being tried. It feels like a wealth thing. The poor in any society have larger problems than policing each others thoughts, and the better-off use it to play social power games.
egeozcan 6y ago
I honestly don't think it should be denied. I thought they would deny it. There's a misunderstanding here. Admittedly, "I found it weird" doesn't communicate that, as I'm now reading my own comment.
- capableweb 6y ago
  I read your comment the first time as "Hey, I saw this, this is what I thought about it, how does others feel?", wanting to open up a conversation without any predefined conclusion of "this is absolutely fine" or "this should be banned". But nuance is famously hard on the internet, and many tend to extrapolate what they think you mean. Generally, more users of HN would do HN an service overall by trying to follow the "Have curious conversation" guideline more, but again, hard when you want to prove someone wrong.
- sukilot 6y ago
  It's easy for me to imagine that a person trapped for years in an isolation-torture cell would have some complicated and slightly un-PC thoughts regarding religion and male-female relationships. That request is 0.01x as offensive as much common HN chatter, and 0.0000001x as offensive as what is being done to the imprisoned person requesting it, so I really see no value in your calling negative attention to it, and I invite you to broaden your worldview.
  - egeozcan 6y ago
    I invite you to chill, trying to discuss stuff like these actually help broaden views.

luckylion 6y ago

> As soon as you dive into what's offensive or not, you'll start discriminating ideologies and religions as well. Isn't that super common in 2020, and has always been very common? We've always judged ideologies and religions, think National Socialism, Stalinism or Scientology. Does the person belonging to that group being in solitary confinement change that?

egeozcan 6y ago
Calling something out for being offensive here means that I'd like see other opinions. At the very least, I thought it was. I didn't call to action against this request. I didn't send them a request to take it down, no authorities involved, nothing serious really. I just found it offensive, and thought it would be interesting for others to see, my expectation was to see interesting takes on the subject. Not everyone you see on the internet who says they are offended is part of the so-called "cancel culture". I'm surely not. I'd suggest everyone to relax.
- capableweb 6y ago
  I agree with you and send kudos your way for raising the conversation. I have no skin in the game really, and earlier comment is just my side of the coin, love to see others as well. And I echo the idea of everyone to relax. Just because someone is flagging something as potentially offensive doesn't mean they want it removed from the surface of the earth. Plenty of things are offensive but should still be visible/readable.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Sorry, I wasn't trying to suggest that you wanted to cancel anyone. I find it completely normal to take offense and to say so, and I think it speaks for the inability of the HN community to tolerate dissenting opinions that your comment was flagged.
  - sukilot 6y ago
    It's pretty gruesome to watch someome go out of their way take casual pot-shots at someone trapped in a torture cell just because the person used wording that isn't the peak of diplomacy. HN has basic standards of human decency; it's not a 100% free speech zone.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      Let's not pretend that it would have been flagged if the request was different. HN heavily leans liberal, and Muslim is a protected identity. I don't believe that it would have played out the same if it had been a similar request that suggests it's a white supremacist, but you're free to tell yourself that.
    - egeozcan 6y ago
      I didn't "take casual pot-shots", I found it interesting that they didn't discriminate against offensive stuff. I'd not want them to, but I expected them to. Have the decency to understand what the other may have been trying to say first, as not all of us are native English speakers. I don't have a problem with that poor person, I have a problem with the idea, yes, but that's irrelevant to this discussion.
capableweb 6y ago
> Isn't that super common in 2020, and has always been very common I think it depends on your location really. In some places, and in the right environment, you can be a proclaimed communist and have a normal conversation with someone who is a proclaimed nazi. It's usually tough and with some heated arguments, but it is indeed possible. From the outside though, I think the people in the US have lost that ability, which you are now seeing the effect of.
- egeozcan 6y ago
  I'm not from the US and I'm very confused about how strong the reactions are. I certainly wasn't trying to start a revolt against a random poor guy here. It may be shocking to people but I judge people according to what they do and say. They judge me too. We don't try to "cancel" each other. I'm an immigrant living in Germany, coming from a Muslim family, and I've been to the stands of AfD, and I judged them, yes, because what they are trying to accomplish is offending to me. I didn't call the police, no. Not because they'd laugh me off anyways, I'd not try silencing them even if I had power to do so.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > It's usually tough and with some heated arguments, but it is indeed possible. Sure, but both the Communist and the Nazi will judge each other's ideology, and very openly tell them apart from "the rest" of possible ideologies. A catholic from one catholic sect will usually have fewer issues with somebody from another catholic sect or even a protestant, than a pagan. I don't think there is a place or point in time where everybody is essentially saying "that's your opinion, okay, whatever" with regards to ideologies and religions that aren't their own. Whether that discrimination will lead to oppression and violence is another issue, but surely everyone has an opinion on whether something is (factually and/or morally) wrong or right, and when they feel safe enough, they will say so. I agree with your perception that it seems to have become harder to tolerate people of different convictions, though I don't think the US is unique in that way, it's just more in the open there, and their much more pronounced idea of freedom of speech and fewer labor laws make it easier to "cancel" someone, which in turn makes increases the frequency of it being tried. It feels like a wealth thing. The poor in any society have larger problems than policing each others thoughts, and the better-off use it to play social power games.

egeozcan 6y ago

I honestly don't think it should be denied. I thought they would deny it. There's a misunderstanding here. Admittedly, "I found it weird" doesn't communicate that, as I'm now reading my own comment.

capableweb 6y ago
I read your comment the first time as "Hey, I saw this, this is what I thought about it, how does others feel?", wanting to open up a conversation without any predefined conclusion of "this is absolutely fine" or "this should be banned". But nuance is famously hard on the internet, and many tend to extrapolate what they think you mean. Generally, more users of HN would do HN an service overall by trying to follow the "Have curious conversation" guideline more, but again, hard when you want to prove someone wrong.
sukilot 6y ago
It's easy for me to imagine that a person trapped for years in an isolation-torture cell would have some complicated and slightly un-PC thoughts regarding religion and male-female relationships. That request is 0.01x as offensive as much common HN chatter, and 0.0000001x as offensive as what is being done to the imprisoned person requesting it, so I really see no value in your calling negative attention to it, and I invite you to broaden your worldview.
- egeozcan 6y ago
  I invite you to chill, trying to discuss stuff like these actually help broaden views.