5 ms·

College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in coll

by nujabe 6y ago

College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from home. Plus I don't it's fair to minority students, who already face their own challenges on college campuses, to be forced to interact and cohabit with known racists.

rdiddly 6y ago
Fair enough on burdening minority students further. But, counterpoint, they're the most qualified to educate white people about it, and maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Definitely have to take exception to the first sentence though, since a college literally has a department called the Humanities!
- toomanyrichies 6y ago
  > maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Whether or not they're put in that kind of "leadership position" should be up to them, not anyone else. It's not the responsibility of under-represented groups to educate white people about the history of racial and economic injustice. If we want to learn, the resources exist for us to learn on our own. If we don't want to learn, no amount of prerequisite classes in "Humanities" will motivate us to do so.
  - rdiddly 6y ago
    Notice, though, that you just put white people in charge of it.
    - toomanyrichies 6y ago
      How so? If my goal is to learn about under-represented groups, a wide swath of content produced by those people already exists. True, I'm the one choosing what content to consume, so in that sense I guess you're correct that I'm technically "in charge". On the other hand, if I limit my choices to content produced by those same groups, then any choice I make is likely to be the right one. And if I rinse-and-repeat this process, consuming a diverse-enough cross section of said content, I'm well on my way to expanding my worldview.
      - rdiddly 6y ago
        So far so good, but now picture someone raised with racism doing all that. We can hope, but I guess I'm not optimistic. I feel like they need to be "acted upon" by someone or by some experience. I also don't have the same faith in content. Unless you can reduce all human interaction to content, and hell nowadays we're probably closer than ever to making that be the case, but that's another whole topic we could spend hours on. My point is that if there's any value at all to in-person university over online university, it's in precisely those experiences that can't easily be reduced to content: actual human interaction, and in particular, preferably coming up with shared solutions to shared problems. That always seems to go a long way toward building a community whether it's a community of people who are all the same or all different. Even people involuntarily thrown together like prisoners, or draftees into the army let's say. How many whites went into WWII and stayed racists after a black man in their platoon saved their ass? Just a particularly dramatic example but you get my point. The white & black soldiers both had the same problems and worked on the same solutions. And in that example, the black soldier was "in charge" of re-educating the white one. I dunno it's just the neighborhood my thoughts have been running in lately.
msla 6y ago
> College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. If they have a racist home life where all their influencers are racist, this is impossible, or close enough to it you can't rely on it happening. Denying them the ability to move on with their lives by "proving" to them that the outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change.
- nujabe 6y ago
  If the Trump era has taught me anything, it's that for the most part it's usually a fools errand trying to explain to racists why their views are wrong. As you mentioned they're just set in their ways. There's usually a fundamental mind shift required that goes beyond a few conversations. It may sound intuitive that a college experience may help them get over their views but I really don't think college is the place for that. >...outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change. This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? People learn all sorts of screwed up behaviours and beliefs at home, racism being just one among many, it's still up to the individual to be self aware and self improve. And as I mentioned in the previous post, their admission poses a risk to the social cohesion and mental health of all the students at the college, which I think would be unfair.
  - msla 6y ago
    > This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? That isn't what I said. I'd never defend any kind of racist thought, and I'd further never confuse explaining something with defending it. For example, you can explain why a cancer arose without defending the cancer's existence. Similarly with racism: You can explain why people hold racist beliefs without defending any kind of racism whatsoever.
Yver 6y ago
> If they didn't learn that at home [...] And if someone comes from a dysfunctional home then tough luck. Be born in a better home next time. Same thing for people who've been arrested for anything violent or threatening. Wouldn't want to be forced to interact with someone with a criminal past. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from a prison cell.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Your argument doesn't hold water because simply put there are hundreds of more applicants w/ just as sad background as any other kid. I mean the only way it wouldn't is if they completely did away w/ applications altogether and just went w/ a blind lottery. What you did in high school matters. If you got straight F's you're not getting into Harvard, but using racial slurs w/ a 4.0 should? Just give their seat to the next person who worked just almost as hard as they did. I'm sure there's long lines of people just as deserving (more so probably) waiting to get in, why should their accomplishments not be rewarded also?

by nujabe 6y ago

rdiddly 6y ago

Fair enough on burdening minority students further. But, counterpoint, they're the most qualified to educate white people about it, and maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Definitely have to take exception to the first sentence though, since a college literally has a department called the Humanities!

toomanyrichies 6y ago
> maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Whether or not they're put in that kind of "leadership position" should be up to them, not anyone else. It's not the responsibility of under-represented groups to educate white people about the history of racial and economic injustice. If we want to learn, the resources exist for us to learn on our own. If we don't want to learn, no amount of prerequisite classes in "Humanities" will motivate us to do so.
- rdiddly 6y ago
  Notice, though, that you just put white people in charge of it.
  - toomanyrichies 6y ago
    How so? If my goal is to learn about under-represented groups, a wide swath of content produced by those people already exists. True, I'm the one choosing what content to consume, so in that sense I guess you're correct that I'm technically "in charge". On the other hand, if I limit my choices to content produced by those same groups, then any choice I make is likely to be the right one. And if I rinse-and-repeat this process, consuming a diverse-enough cross section of said content, I'm well on my way to expanding my worldview.
    - rdiddly 6y ago
      So far so good, but now picture someone raised with racism doing all that. We can hope, but I guess I'm not optimistic. I feel like they need to be "acted upon" by someone or by some experience. I also don't have the same faith in content. Unless you can reduce all human interaction to content, and hell nowadays we're probably closer than ever to making that be the case, but that's another whole topic we could spend hours on. My point is that if there's any value at all to in-person university over online university, it's in precisely those experiences that can't easily be reduced to content: actual human interaction, and in particular, preferably coming up with shared solutions to shared problems. That always seems to go a long way toward building a community whether it's a community of people who are all the same or all different. Even people involuntarily thrown together like prisoners, or draftees into the army let's say. How many whites went into WWII and stayed racists after a black man in their platoon saved their ass? Just a particularly dramatic example but you get my point. The white & black soldiers both had the same problems and worked on the same solutions. And in that example, the black soldier was "in charge" of re-educating the white one. I dunno it's just the neighborhood my thoughts have been running in lately.

msla 6y ago

> College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. If they have a racist home life where all their influencers are racist, this is impossible, or close enough to it you can't rely on it happening. Denying them the ability to move on with their lives by "proving" to them that the outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change.

nujabe 6y ago
If the Trump era has taught me anything, it's that for the most part it's usually a fools errand trying to explain to racists why their views are wrong. As you mentioned they're just set in their ways. There's usually a fundamental mind shift required that goes beyond a few conversations. It may sound intuitive that a college experience may help them get over their views but I really don't think college is the place for that. >...outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change. This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? People learn all sorts of screwed up behaviours and beliefs at home, racism being just one among many, it's still up to the individual to be self aware and self improve. And as I mentioned in the previous post, their admission poses a risk to the social cohesion and mental health of all the students at the college, which I think would be unfair.
- msla 6y ago
  > This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? That isn't what I said. I'd never defend any kind of racist thought, and I'd further never confuse explaining something with defending it. For example, you can explain why a cancer arose without defending the cancer's existence. Similarly with racism: You can explain why people hold racist beliefs without defending any kind of racism whatsoever.

Yver 6y ago

> If they didn't learn that at home [...] And if someone comes from a dysfunctional home then tough luck. Be born in a better home next time. Same thing for people who've been arrested for anything violent or threatening. Wouldn't want to be forced to interact with someone with a criminal past. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from a prison cell.

gremlinsinc 6y ago
Your argument doesn't hold water because simply put there are hundreds of more applicants w/ just as sad background as any other kid. I mean the only way it wouldn't is if they completely did away w/ applications altogether and just went w/ a blind lottery. What you did in high school matters. If you got straight F's you're not getting into Harvard, but using racial slurs w/ a 4.0 should? Just give their seat to the next person who worked just almost as hard as they did. I'm sure there's long lines of people just as deserving (more so probably) waiting to get in, why should their accomplishments not be rewarded also?