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What's next, restaurants refusing patrons for being hungry? A college education is exactly what they need. Not only to get some history and some different persp

What's next, restaurants refusing patrons for being hungry? A college education is exactly what they need. Not only to get some history and some different perspectives, but also to potentially have a brown person as a prof, a roommate or better yet a project teammate, and have their grade depend on working with them. Maybe even experience having that person carry them on the project for the super mindblow. Sending them back to their childhood bedroom and shitty hometown retail job, notsomuch.

nujabe 6y ago
College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from home. Plus I don't it's fair to minority students, who already face their own challenges on college campuses, to be forced to interact and cohabit with known racists.
- rdiddly 6y ago
  Fair enough on burdening minority students further. But, counterpoint, they're the most qualified to educate white people about it, and maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Definitely have to take exception to the first sentence though, since a college literally has a department called the Humanities!
  - toomanyrichies 6y ago
    > maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Whether or not they're put in that kind of "leadership position" should be up to them, not anyone else. It's not the responsibility of under-represented groups to educate white people about the history of racial and economic injustice. If we want to learn, the resources exist for us to learn on our own. If we don't want to learn, no amount of prerequisite classes in "Humanities" will motivate us to do so.
    - rdiddly 6y ago
      Notice, though, that you just put white people in charge of it.
      - toomanyrichies 6y ago
        How so? If my goal is to learn about under-represented groups, a wide swath of content produced by those people already exists. True, I'm the one choosing what content to consume, so in that sense I guess you're correct that I'm technically "in charge". On the other hand, if I limit my choices to content produced by those same groups, then any choice I make is likely to be the right one. And if I rinse-and-repeat this process, consuming a diverse-enough cross section of said content, I'm well on my way to expanding my worldview.
        rdiddly 6y ago
        So far so good, but now picture someone raised with racism doing all that. We can hope, but I guess I'm not optimistic. I feel like they need to be "acted upon" by someone or by some experience. I also don't have the same faith in content. Unless you can reduce all human interaction to content, and hell nowadays we're probably closer than ever to making that be the case, but that's another whole topic we could spend hours on. My point is that if there's any value at all to in-person university over online university, it's in precisely those experiences that can't easily be reduced to content: actual human interaction, and in particular, preferably coming up with shared solutions to shared problems. That always seems to go a long way toward building a community whether it's a community of people who are all the same or all different. Even people involuntarily thrown together like prisoners, or draftees into the army let's say. How many whites went into WWII and stayed racists after a black man in their platoon saved their ass? Just a particularly dramatic example but you get my point. The white & black soldiers both had the same problems and worked on the same solutions. And in that example, the black soldier was "in charge" of re-educating the white one. I dunno it's just the neighborhood my thoughts have been running in lately.
- msla 6y ago
  > College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. If they have a racist home life where all their influencers are racist, this is impossible, or close enough to it you can't rely on it happening. Denying them the ability to move on with their lives by "proving" to them that the outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change.
  - nujabe 6y ago
    If the Trump era has taught me anything, it's that for the most part it's usually a fools errand trying to explain to racists why their views are wrong. As you mentioned they're just set in their ways. There's usually a fundamental mind shift required that goes beyond a few conversations. It may sound intuitive that a college experience may help them get over their views but I really don't think college is the place for that. >...outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change. This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? People learn all sorts of screwed up behaviours and beliefs at home, racism being just one among many, it's still up to the individual to be self aware and self improve. And as I mentioned in the previous post, their admission poses a risk to the social cohesion and mental health of all the students at the college, which I think would be unfair.
    - msla 6y ago
      > This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? That isn't what I said. I'd never defend any kind of racist thought, and I'd further never confuse explaining something with defending it. For example, you can explain why a cancer arose without defending the cancer's existence. Similarly with racism: You can explain why people hold racist beliefs without defending any kind of racism whatsoever.
- Yver 6y ago
  > If they didn't learn that at home [...] And if someone comes from a dysfunctional home then tough luck. Be born in a better home next time. Same thing for people who've been arrested for anything violent or threatening. Wouldn't want to be forced to interact with someone with a criminal past. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from a prison cell.
  - gremlinsinc 6y ago
    Your argument doesn't hold water because simply put there are hundreds of more applicants w/ just as sad background as any other kid. I mean the only way it wouldn't is if they completely did away w/ applications altogether and just went w/ a blind lottery. What you did in high school matters. If you got straight F's you're not getting into Harvard, but using racial slurs w/ a 4.0 should? Just give their seat to the next person who worked just almost as hard as they did. I'm sure there's long lines of people just as deserving (more so probably) waiting to get in, why should their accomplishments not be rewarded also?
akhilcacharya 6y ago
> A college education is exactly what they need. I'm sure they can get that out of community college.
toomanyrichies 6y ago
> A college education is exactly what they need. Avowed anti-Semite and white supremacist Richard Spencer has a BA from the University of Virginia, a Masters from the University of Chicago, and would have earned a PhD from Duke University if he hadn't dropped out on his own. Your argument does not hold water.
- rdiddly 6y ago
  OK no college for them. We'll use your idea instead. What is it?
  - toomanyrichies 6y ago
    > We'll use your idea instead. What is it? For starters, how about they prove they've learned the error of their ways? If racist behavior was the grounds for the revocation of their acceptance letter, they can start by demonstrating a track record of remorse for their actions, over a non-trivial amount of time. An appropriately contrite-sounding college entrance essay cranked out over a weekend isn't going to cut it. What sincere attempts have they made to make amends for their racist actions? The students we're discussing have burned bridges through their racist actions, now it's on them to build new ones. Once they've done that, then we'll talk. > What's next, restaurants refusing patrons for being hungry? Any time I see the "what's next" argument here on HN or anywhere, it immediately reeks of the "slippery slope" fallacy. Equating racist behavior with "being hungry" is absurd on its face. > Not only to get some history and some different perspectives, but also to potentially have a brown person as a prof, a roommate or better yet a project teammate... Expecting racists to do a 180 and become upstanding citizens as the result of "having a brown person as a prof", as if you can catch anti-racism via osmosis, is only slightly less absurd than equating racist behavior with being hungry.
    - rdiddly 6y ago
      When you characterize a perfectly easy-to-understand analogy as "equating" you leave room for only two possibilities: 1) You're bad at analogy, or 2) You're making a bad-faith argument. I don't see how that trick would work ever, but of all places, it won't work here. The thing to do would be to argue the point, not to argue a fake point based on pretending not to know what an analogy is. Moving on. I actually liked the idea in your first paragraph. Too bad you had to spend the middle one alienating me. Finally, it's not a 180 someone would be turning. Things are never, if you'll pardon the expression, so black and white. Surprisingly, racists are actually complex human beings with whole lives and shit, not some shallow caricature of pure evil who needs to turn 180° to be "good." Probably I'm some kind of heretic already just for suggesting a racist might not be pure evil, and I reek of, and it smacks of, and the vibe I'm getting is. But yeah I'll bet it's more like a 10° turn in most cases. And it's a turn of a vessel that, at age 18, really doesn't have much weight or momentum to it either. And yes I firmly believe exposure to the people they're biased against is one of the few things that will change them or make them see that racism makes no sense. Call it osmosis if you like; it's how humans learn from each other. Shrieking & judging just makes them hate you along with whomever they already hate. I've certainly done enough of that myself, though on other causes, but with predictably bad results. I still like the "prove you've reformed" thing though.
ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
That’s such a stupid comparison in the first sentence

nujabe 6y ago

College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from home. Plus I don't it's fair to minority students, who already face their own challenges on college campuses, to be forced to interact and cohabit with known racists.

rdiddly 6y ago
Fair enough on burdening minority students further. But, counterpoint, they're the most qualified to educate white people about it, and maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Definitely have to take exception to the first sentence though, since a college literally has a department called the Humanities!
- toomanyrichies 6y ago
  > maybe it's never too early to put them in a leadership position where they can do that. Whether or not they're put in that kind of "leadership position" should be up to them, not anyone else. It's not the responsibility of under-represented groups to educate white people about the history of racial and economic injustice. If we want to learn, the resources exist for us to learn on our own. If we don't want to learn, no amount of prerequisite classes in "Humanities" will motivate us to do so.
  - rdiddly 6y ago
    Notice, though, that you just put white people in charge of it.
    - toomanyrichies 6y ago
      How so? If my goal is to learn about under-represented groups, a wide swath of content produced by those people already exists. True, I'm the one choosing what content to consume, so in that sense I guess you're correct that I'm technically "in charge". On the other hand, if I limit my choices to content produced by those same groups, then any choice I make is likely to be the right one. And if I rinse-and-repeat this process, consuming a diverse-enough cross section of said content, I'm well on my way to expanding my worldview.
      - rdiddly 6y ago
        So far so good, but now picture someone raised with racism doing all that. We can hope, but I guess I'm not optimistic. I feel like they need to be "acted upon" by someone or by some experience. I also don't have the same faith in content. Unless you can reduce all human interaction to content, and hell nowadays we're probably closer than ever to making that be the case, but that's another whole topic we could spend hours on. My point is that if there's any value at all to in-person university over online university, it's in precisely those experiences that can't easily be reduced to content: actual human interaction, and in particular, preferably coming up with shared solutions to shared problems. That always seems to go a long way toward building a community whether it's a community of people who are all the same or all different. Even people involuntarily thrown together like prisoners, or draftees into the army let's say. How many whites went into WWII and stayed racists after a black man in their platoon saved their ass? Just a particularly dramatic example but you get my point. The white & black soldiers both had the same problems and worked on the same solutions. And in that example, the black soldier was "in charge" of re-educating the white one. I dunno it's just the neighborhood my thoughts have been running in lately.
msla 6y ago
> College is not the place to teach racists to become humanists. If they didn't learn that at home or at school, they certainly aren't going to learn that in college. If they have a racist home life where all their influencers are racist, this is impossible, or close enough to it you can't rely on it happening. Denying them the ability to move on with their lives by "proving" to them that the outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change.
- nujabe 6y ago
  If the Trump era has taught me anything, it's that for the most part it's usually a fools errand trying to explain to racists why their views are wrong. As you mentioned they're just set in their ways. There's usually a fundamental mind shift required that goes beyond a few conversations. It may sound intuitive that a college experience may help them get over their views but I really don't think college is the place for that. >...outside world will always hate them for saying the things they were raised to say is the absolute most perfect way to make sure they never want to change. This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? People learn all sorts of screwed up behaviours and beliefs at home, racism being just one among many, it's still up to the individual to be self aware and self improve. And as I mentioned in the previous post, their admission poses a risk to the social cohesion and mental health of all the students at the college, which I think would be unfair.
  - msla 6y ago
    > This can't be a serious argument...since when was beliefs held as an adult, however grotesque, become 'okay' because it was taught at home? That isn't what I said. I'd never defend any kind of racist thought, and I'd further never confuse explaining something with defending it. For example, you can explain why a cancer arose without defending the cancer's existence. Similarly with racism: You can explain why people hold racist beliefs without defending any kind of racism whatsoever.
Yver 6y ago
> If they didn't learn that at home [...] And if someone comes from a dysfunctional home then tough luck. Be born in a better home next time. Same thing for people who've been arrested for anything violent or threatening. Wouldn't want to be forced to interact with someone with a criminal past. They need to do some soul searching, which can be done from a prison cell.
- gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Your argument doesn't hold water because simply put there are hundreds of more applicants w/ just as sad background as any other kid. I mean the only way it wouldn't is if they completely did away w/ applications altogether and just went w/ a blind lottery. What you did in high school matters. If you got straight F's you're not getting into Harvard, but using racial slurs w/ a 4.0 should? Just give their seat to the next person who worked just almost as hard as they did. I'm sure there's long lines of people just as deserving (more so probably) waiting to get in, why should their accomplishments not be rewarded also?

akhilcacharya 6y ago

> A college education is exactly what they need. I'm sure they can get that out of community college.

toomanyrichies 6y ago

> A college education is exactly what they need. Avowed anti-Semite and white supremacist Richard Spencer has a BA from the University of Virginia, a Masters from the University of Chicago, and would have earned a PhD from Duke University if he hadn't dropped out on his own. Your argument does not hold water.

rdiddly 6y ago
OK no college for them. We'll use your idea instead. What is it?
- toomanyrichies 6y ago
  > We'll use your idea instead. What is it? For starters, how about they prove they've learned the error of their ways? If racist behavior was the grounds for the revocation of their acceptance letter, they can start by demonstrating a track record of remorse for their actions, over a non-trivial amount of time. An appropriately contrite-sounding college entrance essay cranked out over a weekend isn't going to cut it. What sincere attempts have they made to make amends for their racist actions? The students we're discussing have burned bridges through their racist actions, now it's on them to build new ones. Once they've done that, then we'll talk. > What's next, restaurants refusing patrons for being hungry? Any time I see the "what's next" argument here on HN or anywhere, it immediately reeks of the "slippery slope" fallacy. Equating racist behavior with "being hungry" is absurd on its face. > Not only to get some history and some different perspectives, but also to potentially have a brown person as a prof, a roommate or better yet a project teammate... Expecting racists to do a 180 and become upstanding citizens as the result of "having a brown person as a prof", as if you can catch anti-racism via osmosis, is only slightly less absurd than equating racist behavior with being hungry.
  - rdiddly 6y ago
    When you characterize a perfectly easy-to-understand analogy as "equating" you leave room for only two possibilities: 1) You're bad at analogy, or 2) You're making a bad-faith argument. I don't see how that trick would work ever, but of all places, it won't work here. The thing to do would be to argue the point, not to argue a fake point based on pretending not to know what an analogy is. Moving on. I actually liked the idea in your first paragraph. Too bad you had to spend the middle one alienating me. Finally, it's not a 180 someone would be turning. Things are never, if you'll pardon the expression, so black and white. Surprisingly, racists are actually complex human beings with whole lives and shit, not some shallow caricature of pure evil who needs to turn 180° to be "good." Probably I'm some kind of heretic already just for suggesting a racist might not be pure evil, and I reek of, and it smacks of, and the vibe I'm getting is. But yeah I'll bet it's more like a 10° turn in most cases. And it's a turn of a vessel that, at age 18, really doesn't have much weight or momentum to it either. And yes I firmly believe exposure to the people they're biased against is one of the few things that will change them or make them see that racism makes no sense. Call it osmosis if you like; it's how humans learn from each other. Shrieking & judging just makes them hate you along with whomever they already hate. I've certainly done enough of that myself, though on other causes, but with predictably bad results. I still like the "prove you've reformed" thing though.

ulisesrmzroche 6y ago

That’s such a stupid comparison in the first sentence