5 ms·

Nathan made a thread as a reply to this piece on him https://twitter.com/NathanTankus/status/1278777095670370304 https://twitter.com/NathanTankus/status/127877

by nikivi 6y ago

Nathan made a thread as a reply to this piece on him https://twitter.com/NathanTankus/status/1278777095670370304 https://twitter.com/NathanTankus/status/1278777095670370304

eganist 6y ago
Thank you for linking this. Arguments will be made that Nathan is politicizing his spotlight, but he's simply seizing the moment to cast light on a dark and apolitical truth most of us take for granted. I hope HNers can take the time to read this with an open and introspective heart and mind. Unrolled: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1278777095670370304.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1278777095670370304.html
- dkdk8283 6y ago
  It absolutely is politicized and I find this to minimize his accomplishments.
  - eganist 6y ago
    Can you help me understand why you believe that highlighting privilege arising from one's innate characteristics is political?
    - smeeth 6y ago
      Not OP but I’d be curious to hear why you think it isn’t. As best I can tell the distinguishing characteristic between people who believe in the existence of white/male privilege and those who do not is political affiliation.
      - eganist 6y ago
        > As best I can tell the distinguishing characteristic between people who believe in the existence of white/male privilege and those who do not is political affiliation. The people who are not white, not cis-male, or not straight are the people who have encountered consistent barriers as a result of these negations. These are all immutable parameters, not political affiliations. No one chooses to be white (or not). No one chooses to be male (or not). No one chooses to be straight (or not). Women? Barriers. Trans? Barriers. Black? Barriers. Middle Eastern? Even though we're classified as white by tax code? Barriers. Gay? Barriers. Jewish? Muslim? Even Catholic? (Considering the mental trauma that often arises with rapid disillusionment from religion, this is largely considered immutable) Barriers. Hispanic? Asian? Aboriginal? Native American? Barriers. I get that it's uncomfortable to hackernews because we like to think that every startup operates in a meritocratic manner, but that's been consistently proven false just with the sheer volume of white straight cis-men managing and leading companies in the US, Australia, the EU, wherever you look. tl;dr: it's not political because the people who understand that it's an issue overwhelmingly tend to be the victims, and the people who don't understand that it's an issue mostly tend not to be victims, and the victims tend to be victimized because of immutable traits rather than ideologies.
  - bdibs 6y ago
    I don't like this new trend where some people believe certain facts are political. A fact is a fact, no matter which "side" you're on.
    - zarathustreal 6y ago
      A parroted opinion, presented without evidence and rigorous scientific research, on the other hand, can very well be just a political statement. Especially the kind of opinion that is given in a context completely unrelated and to an audience of people that never asked to hear it. Regardless of whether being white is a statistical indicator of likeliness to have something meaningful to say, we need to first establish that the consequences of such a thing are negative in the first place. “White privilege” does not exclude others from the same “privilege” - it’s entirely possible for any other attribute-based demographic to accumulate a statistic average as well.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
    - aliante 6y ago
      It is hardly factual that he was only allowed into conferences for being white.
      - aahhahahaaa 6y ago
        Do you think it's factual that it's easier to blend in if you look like everyone else?
        aliante 6y ago
        That is factual. That would be relevant if conference entry were being managed by snipers searching crowds.
        aahhahahaaa 6y ago
- who_ex 6y ago
  "whiteness, cisness..." stopped reading right there. every time someone mentions these words, without fail, the next words that come of their mouths is absolute garbage
- roenxi 6y ago
  He's literally just some dude; he isn't even claiming credentialism. Anyone who complains about him politicising something is looking very hard for reasons to complain. If making political statements is the reward he wants for doing the legwork to document what the Fed is doing, he can have it.
- spinach 6y ago
  "cisness". Ugh. I had to stop reading there. Basically no one is 'cis', which is basically just saying you agree with all the crap stereotypes placed on your sex. No one does. This is extremely regressive gender crap. Men and women also aren't subsets of their own sex.
  - danbolt 6y ago
    I think "cis" is a topic related to gender, rather than sex. The term is short for "cisgender". For example, "cis man" and "trans man" are both subsets of men.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > I think "cis" is a topic related to gender, rather than sex. Cisgender and transgender have to do with both sex and gender. Specifically with whether they have the stereotypical or antistereotypical relation.
      - danbolt 6y ago
        You're totally right! I probably should have referenced the relationship between the two in my post.
aahhahahaaa 6y ago
Wow, what a thoughtful way to respond. That level of character is something you certainly can't get with a degree.
- arkis22 6y ago
  There are quite a few people in the world with a high level of character and no degree
jlawson 6y ago
"That I'm a white cis male who dresses in dress shirts and dress slacks(and have done so since I was 19)has given me a passport into conferences,events and more.I crashed conferences without paying during high school that I would have been barred from if I looked any other way" How does he know? Is there any evidence for this? Were women or blacks 'barred'? Because if so, I would expect someone to sue and win easily. The rest of the tweets are a stream of similar and all-unsubstantiated accusations. But we can't dispute any of what he said, because he made his accusations without enough specificity for them to be checked in any way. He chose not to name the 2010 conference. There's nothing trifling about such accusations. Just because nobody is in a position to respond doesn't mean you're not hurting people. Whether the accusations are made against individuals, specific groups, or a whole ethnic group. If you're gonna slag someone you should have evidence, and you should be specific. In any case, he chose a good strategy to maximize his personal outcomes. He'll benefit greatly from this. D on fairness and principle, A on strategy.
- aahhahahaaa 6y ago
  It's outrageously easier to fly under the radar if you're white. If you want to look at it in a ridiculously objective way just consider being a black rock on a white sand beach. Even without the concept of racial bias, which is absolutely at play in these situations, you'll be subject to more scrutiny just by not being the norm.
  - cbzoiav 6y ago
    On the flip side there are positive racial biases. i.e. if you're the only non-white but otherwise fit the part / especially if dressed on the smarter end some people are less likely to question you because they don't want to be seen applying a bias. Actively questioning the one black guy is a lot more obvious than actively not questioning him.
    - kojeovo 6y ago
      lucky them not being treated like anyone else
hardwaregeek 6y ago
I've been thinking about this exact issue with respect to my accomplishments. How much benefit have I drawn from looking like a programmer? I'm an Asian American male with glasses. I fit the part. Looking back, people gave me respect and their ear far before I deserved it. Would I have gotten the same level of encouragement if I were Black? Would I have gotten the same level of respect if I were a woman? Probably not. Any social engineer can tell you that appearances are half the battle. A white male in a hardhat with a clipboard could get into most construction sites. A white male in a suit could probably get into most office buildings. There's some rather vehement responses in this thread. I wonder how many people are threatened by the idea that their accomplishments are partially due to them "looking the part" and not just their work and skill.
- ColanR 6y ago
  > Any social engineer From my readings of pentesters doing social engineering, female pentesters have the vast advantage when trying to gain building access.
- aliante 6y ago
  > A white male in a suit could probably get into most office buildings. A woman is going to have a far easier time getting into an office building.
  - _hardwaregeek 6y ago
    I appreciate the correction, but frankly this isn't what I hoped people would take away from my comment. My point was that race/gender/appearance plays a large role in gaining access to normally stratified resources
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Dressing for success is not exactly some secret of influence. A black guy in a suit in 2020 is going to be able to get into any office building as well. A black guy with a hard hat is not exactly unheard of on construction sites. It's quite common.
- 6y ago
Thorentis 6y ago
Point out your "flaw" before the mob does. Classic tactic. I can't even tell if people are sincere any more, that's how far the PC culture has gone. Nathan now gets a free ride since he has acknowledged his privilege, and has now unlocked new avenues to market his work. Maybe he can get a job as an economic diversity consultant to ensure a perfect racial balance is admitted to conference from now on, given how self-aware he is.
fzeroracer 6y ago
It's unfortunate to see other HN commentators here seeing someone be humble and recognize that their success is the result of a number of different criteria as being an example of 'PC culture gone mad' or that he's just lying to avoid the mob or as a personal attack on them. There was an example a while ago of the issues black CEOs face in SV [1] and it's just something you'll never see as a cis white man. I've certainly never encountered any issues relating to my race or my gender or how I present myself, but if you're a black man you're already used to dressing a different way to prevent being perceived as a threat [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 [2] https://mashable.com/2015/08/08/black-men-dressing-up-police/ https://mashable.com/2015/08/08/black-men-dressing-up-police...

by nikivi 6y ago

Nathan made a thread as a reply to this piece on him https://twitter.com/NathanTankus/status/1278777095670370304 https://twitter.com/NathanTankus/status/1278777095670370304

eganist 6y ago

Thank you for linking this. Arguments will be made that Nathan is politicizing his spotlight, but he's simply seizing the moment to cast light on a dark and apolitical truth most of us take for granted. I hope HNers can take the time to read this with an open and introspective heart and mind. Unrolled: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1278777095670370304.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1278777095670370304.html

dkdk8283 6y ago
It absolutely is politicized and I find this to minimize his accomplishments.
- eganist 6y ago
  Can you help me understand why you believe that highlighting privilege arising from one's innate characteristics is political?
  - smeeth 6y ago
    Not OP but I’d be curious to hear why you think it isn’t. As best I can tell the distinguishing characteristic between people who believe in the existence of white/male privilege and those who do not is political affiliation.
    - eganist 6y ago
      > As best I can tell the distinguishing characteristic between people who believe in the existence of white/male privilege and those who do not is political affiliation. The people who are not white, not cis-male, or not straight are the people who have encountered consistent barriers as a result of these negations. These are all immutable parameters, not political affiliations. No one chooses to be white (or not). No one chooses to be male (or not). No one chooses to be straight (or not). Women? Barriers. Trans? Barriers. Black? Barriers. Middle Eastern? Even though we're classified as white by tax code? Barriers. Gay? Barriers. Jewish? Muslim? Even Catholic? (Considering the mental trauma that often arises with rapid disillusionment from religion, this is largely considered immutable) Barriers. Hispanic? Asian? Aboriginal? Native American? Barriers. I get that it's uncomfortable to hackernews because we like to think that every startup operates in a meritocratic manner, but that's been consistently proven false just with the sheer volume of white straight cis-men managing and leading companies in the US, Australia, the EU, wherever you look. tl;dr: it's not political because the people who understand that it's an issue overwhelmingly tend to be the victims, and the people who don't understand that it's an issue mostly tend not to be victims, and the victims tend to be victimized because of immutable traits rather than ideologies.
- bdibs 6y ago
  I don't like this new trend where some people believe certain facts are political. A fact is a fact, no matter which "side" you're on.
  - zarathustreal 6y ago
    A parroted opinion, presented without evidence and rigorous scientific research, on the other hand, can very well be just a political statement. Especially the kind of opinion that is given in a context completely unrelated and to an audience of people that never asked to hear it. Regardless of whether being white is a statistical indicator of likeliness to have something meaningful to say, we need to first establish that the consequences of such a thing are negative in the first place. “White privilege” does not exclude others from the same “privilege” - it’s entirely possible for any other attribute-based demographic to accumulate a statistic average as well.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - aliante 6y ago
    It is hardly factual that he was only allowed into conferences for being white.
    - aahhahahaaa 6y ago
      Do you think it's factual that it's easier to blend in if you look like everyone else?
      - aliante 6y ago
        That is factual. That would be relevant if conference entry were being managed by snipers searching crowds.
        aahhahahaaa 6y ago
who_ex 6y ago
"whiteness, cisness..." stopped reading right there. every time someone mentions these words, without fail, the next words that come of their mouths is absolute garbage
roenxi 6y ago
He's literally just some dude; he isn't even claiming credentialism. Anyone who complains about him politicising something is looking very hard for reasons to complain. If making political statements is the reward he wants for doing the legwork to document what the Fed is doing, he can have it.
spinach 6y ago
"cisness". Ugh. I had to stop reading there. Basically no one is 'cis', which is basically just saying you agree with all the crap stereotypes placed on your sex. No one does. This is extremely regressive gender crap. Men and women also aren't subsets of their own sex.
- danbolt 6y ago
  I think "cis" is a topic related to gender, rather than sex. The term is short for "cisgender". For example, "cis man" and "trans man" are both subsets of men.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I think "cis" is a topic related to gender, rather than sex. Cisgender and transgender have to do with both sex and gender. Specifically with whether they have the stereotypical or antistereotypical relation.
    - danbolt 6y ago
      You're totally right! I probably should have referenced the relationship between the two in my post.

aahhahahaaa 6y ago

Wow, what a thoughtful way to respond. That level of character is something you certainly can't get with a degree.

arkis22 6y ago
There are quite a few people in the world with a high level of character and no degree

jlawson 6y ago

"That I'm a white cis male who dresses in dress shirts and dress slacks(and have done so since I was 19)has given me a passport into conferences,events and more.I crashed conferences without paying during high school that I would have been barred from if I looked any other way" How does he know? Is there any evidence for this? Were women or blacks 'barred'? Because if so, I would expect someone to sue and win easily. The rest of the tweets are a stream of similar and all-unsubstantiated accusations. But we can't dispute any of what he said, because he made his accusations without enough specificity for them to be checked in any way. He chose not to name the 2010 conference. There's nothing trifling about such accusations. Just because nobody is in a position to respond doesn't mean you're not hurting people. Whether the accusations are made against individuals, specific groups, or a whole ethnic group. If you're gonna slag someone you should have evidence, and you should be specific. In any case, he chose a good strategy to maximize his personal outcomes. He'll benefit greatly from this. D on fairness and principle, A on strategy.

aahhahahaaa 6y ago
It's outrageously easier to fly under the radar if you're white. If you want to look at it in a ridiculously objective way just consider being a black rock on a white sand beach. Even without the concept of racial bias, which is absolutely at play in these situations, you'll be subject to more scrutiny just by not being the norm.
- cbzoiav 6y ago
  On the flip side there are positive racial biases. i.e. if you're the only non-white but otherwise fit the part / especially if dressed on the smarter end some people are less likely to question you because they don't want to be seen applying a bias. Actively questioning the one black guy is a lot more obvious than actively not questioning him.
  - kojeovo 6y ago
    lucky them not being treated like anyone else

hardwaregeek 6y ago

I've been thinking about this exact issue with respect to my accomplishments. How much benefit have I drawn from looking like a programmer? I'm an Asian American male with glasses. I fit the part. Looking back, people gave me respect and their ear far before I deserved it. Would I have gotten the same level of encouragement if I were Black? Would I have gotten the same level of respect if I were a woman? Probably not. Any social engineer can tell you that appearances are half the battle. A white male in a hardhat with a clipboard could get into most construction sites. A white male in a suit could probably get into most office buildings. There's some rather vehement responses in this thread. I wonder how many people are threatened by the idea that their accomplishments are partially due to them "looking the part" and not just their work and skill.

ColanR 6y ago
> Any social engineer From my readings of pentesters doing social engineering, female pentesters have the vast advantage when trying to gain building access.
aliante 6y ago
> A white male in a suit could probably get into most office buildings. A woman is going to have a far easier time getting into an office building.
- _hardwaregeek 6y ago
  I appreciate the correction, but frankly this isn't what I hoped people would take away from my comment. My point was that race/gender/appearance plays a large role in gaining access to normally stratified resources
chrisco255 6y ago
Dressing for success is not exactly some secret of influence. A black guy in a suit in 2020 is going to be able to get into any office building as well. A black guy with a hard hat is not exactly unheard of on construction sites. It's quite common.
6y ago

Thorentis 6y ago

Point out your "flaw" before the mob does. Classic tactic. I can't even tell if people are sincere any more, that's how far the PC culture has gone. Nathan now gets a free ride since he has acknowledged his privilege, and has now unlocked new avenues to market his work. Maybe he can get a job as an economic diversity consultant to ensure a perfect racial balance is admitted to conference from now on, given how self-aware he is.

fzeroracer 6y ago

It's unfortunate to see other HN commentators here seeing someone be humble and recognize that their success is the result of a number of different criteria as being an example of 'PC culture gone mad' or that he's just lying to avoid the mob or as a personal attack on them. There was an example a while ago of the issues black CEOs face in SV [1] and it's just something you'll never see as a cis white man. I've certainly never encountered any issues relating to my race or my gender or how I present myself, but if you're a black man you're already used to dressing a different way to prevent being perceived as a threat [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23540162 [2] https://mashable.com/2015/08/08/black-men-dressing-up-police/ https://mashable.com/2015/08/08/black-men-dressing-up-police...