5 ms·

Wikipedia's Co-Founder wrote a blog about a month ago detailing biases in Wikipedia articles: https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/ https:/

by ryan_h 6y ago

Wikipedia's Co-Founder wrote a blog about a month ago detailing biases in Wikipedia articles: https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/ https://larrysanger.org/2020/05/wikipedia-is-badly-biased/

random314 6y ago
As a conservative, it must be frustrating for Larry Sanger to see Wikipedia focus on scientific correctness so much - Especially in the Global Warming and alternative medicine articles. Truth has a very well known liberal bias. It is hopeless to expect Wikipedia to change to balance the truth with the truthiness. Volunteers should focus on a new project such as https://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page https://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page
- pstuart 6y ago
  I've been called a "shrill Far Leftist" and a "fascist appeaser". While labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are somewhat handy for general categorization, to label oneself is to automatically box one in with the assumptions of that label. I am a truth seeker, and if that truth should conflict with assumptions I hold, I do my damndest to welcome that truth to the best of my abilities. I think that a key component of intelligence is the ability to "unlearn". That said, conservapedia is a joke to me, which is ironic because conservative comedy usually weak sauce (see Dennis Miller for further details). Writing articles that are intentionally biased whilst proclaiming to be "the truth" borders on Dunning Kruger territory. I don't say this as a personal attack on your ethos, only on any efforts to proclaim a "truth" in service of an agenda. Edit: Looks like I mis-read that comment. Leaving my statement intact to own my words.
  - random314 6y ago
    WTH did I just read?
    - pstuart 6y ago
      > WTH did I just read? My response to you promoting conservapedia. It wasn't intended as a personal attack, and I expect you to treat my response as though it came from some rando on teh interwebs. Edit: you read my stupid, sincere, and sloppy response to my erroneous assumptions about what you said. Sorry about that.
      - rideontime 6y ago
        It seems you (and a lot of downvoters) missed the sarcasm in that comment.
        pstuart 6y ago
        Sarcasm is tough to begin with, harder in print, and even harder in today's political climate. And going back to re-read the comment I replied to I see that I did indeed incorrectly parse that comment. I stand corrected in that regard. Thank you for your input.
lonecone 6y ago
Seriously? This blog is a total joke. It's just throwing out wiki articles and stating "ah because the facts here don't line up with my extreme right wing / conspiratorial values it must be liberal bias!" example from blog : - The first article I thought to look at had some pretty egregious instances of bias: the Jesus article. It simply asserts, again in its own voice, that “the quest for the historical Jesus has yielded major uncertainty on the historical reliability of the Gospels and on how closely the Jesus portrayed in the Bible reflects the historical Jesus.” What is bias about that? That is the exact opposite of bias simply stating the facts as determined though scientific process. or another example: - The global warming and MMR vaccine articles are examples; I hardly need to dive into these pages, since it is quite enough to say that they endorse definite positions that scientific minorities reject. There is information on both of those pages about the minority position, but it is limited because the scientific community is pretty much in agreement on the science behind those topic. Do we need to make sure half the article on the earth is dedicated to flat earth theory to insure there is no extreme liberal globe shaped earth bias?
- grandridge 6y ago
  To deny Wikipedia and tech in general have a serious left bias is the definition of living in an echo chamber
RobLach 6y ago
For an article trying to point out bias it sorely lacks any strong evidence and even includes evidence to contrary. Delusional.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
This is a classic example of impugning the truth by advocating for it with fallacious arguments. Pretending that Donald Trump is not a big fat liar is just ridiculous. Even when he's telling the truth he's lying because he exaggerates everything. But pretending that his Wikipedia article is neutral is equally ridiculous. Here's a random example. Remember that immigrant family separation thing? What actually happened was, there was an existing policy that children were separated from their parents if their parents were in detention. Under Obama that didn't apply to many people because not many people were being detained. Then Trump started prosecuting immigration violations and the number of detentions, and therefore separations, went up. Here's Wikipedia: > Previous administrations had no such policy of generally separating migrant families with children. Here's the NPR article they cite for the proposition: > Previous administrations did not, as a general principle, separate all families crossing the U.S. border illegally. Previous administrations did not, as a general principle, prosecute all families crossing the U.S. border illegally. The families thereby weren't separated as a general principle because the parents weren't being detained as a general principle, not because there was no separation policy when the parents were being detained. This sort of thing is endemic. Paper over the nuance to make the other team look bad. And it's as much NPR here as it is Wikipedia, but balance would have been to find the other half of the story and put it in the article.
- sukilot 6y ago
  It's absurd to say Wikipedia is unbiased, because bias is endorsed by Wikipedia's officially stated policy! The only requirement is that the bias is copied from an off-site source. Wikipedia endorses any well-established" news site, with no requirements that those sites cite their sources. Wikipedia rules require peer review for academic research that is cited, but not for private commercial news operations nor NPR. And despite how weak Wikipedia's rules are, enforcement of those rules is a farce. Anything remotely questionable is controlled by who ever manages to win control of the page, leading to articles that are mer copies of press releases and corporate websites. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
duskwuff 6y ago
Wow, this is an incredibly bad take. Sanger claims that, in altering his early, rambling draft [1] of Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy [2], the project "no longer has an effective neutrality policy" and has endorsed an "utterly bankrupt" policy of "false balance". However, the principle of undue weight, which is what Sanger is referring to as "false balance", was already present in the exact version of the policy which Sanger edited: > Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a very popular view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. And this is precisely the policy which he proceeds to argue against! According to Sanger, the article on Barack Obama should focus more on the various short-lived media scandals and conspiracy theories surrounding his presidency, and articles on vaccines and global warming should focus more on their detractors. Of course, this is nonsense. The only thing that really changed in Wikipedia's policy was the abandonment of the clearly flawed principle that neutrality could be established by "presenting all points of view" on a topic. To understand how that policy is flawed, one need merely consider what would mean for topics with a single, simple consensus view and many fringe theories surrounding them, like Egyptian pyramids. To present every point of view about the pyramids (that they were built by or for aliens, or that their shape or arrangement has mystical powers... etc) alongside well-established scientific consensus (that they were built by Egyptians as royal tombs) would lend inappropriate weight to those points of view. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view&oldid=270459 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_vie...

by ryan_h 6y ago

random314 6y ago

As a conservative, it must be frustrating for Larry Sanger to see Wikipedia focus on scientific correctness so much - Especially in the Global Warming and alternative medicine articles. Truth has a very well known liberal bias. It is hopeless to expect Wikipedia to change to balance the truth with the truthiness. Volunteers should focus on a new project such as https://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page https://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page

pstuart 6y ago
I've been called a "shrill Far Leftist" and a "fascist appeaser". While labels of "liberal" and "conservative" are somewhat handy for general categorization, to label oneself is to automatically box one in with the assumptions of that label. I am a truth seeker, and if that truth should conflict with assumptions I hold, I do my damndest to welcome that truth to the best of my abilities. I think that a key component of intelligence is the ability to "unlearn". That said, conservapedia is a joke to me, which is ironic because conservative comedy usually weak sauce (see Dennis Miller for further details). Writing articles that are intentionally biased whilst proclaiming to be "the truth" borders on Dunning Kruger territory. I don't say this as a personal attack on your ethos, only on any efforts to proclaim a "truth" in service of an agenda. Edit: Looks like I mis-read that comment. Leaving my statement intact to own my words.
- random314 6y ago
  WTH did I just read?
  - pstuart 6y ago
    > WTH did I just read? My response to you promoting conservapedia. It wasn't intended as a personal attack, and I expect you to treat my response as though it came from some rando on teh interwebs. Edit: you read my stupid, sincere, and sloppy response to my erroneous assumptions about what you said. Sorry about that.
    - rideontime 6y ago
      It seems you (and a lot of downvoters) missed the sarcasm in that comment.
      - pstuart 6y ago
        Sarcasm is tough to begin with, harder in print, and even harder in today's political climate. And going back to re-read the comment I replied to I see that I did indeed incorrectly parse that comment. I stand corrected in that regard. Thank you for your input.

lonecone 6y ago

Seriously? This blog is a total joke. It's just throwing out wiki articles and stating "ah because the facts here don't line up with my extreme right wing / conspiratorial values it must be liberal bias!" example from blog : - The first article I thought to look at had some pretty egregious instances of bias: the Jesus article. It simply asserts, again in its own voice, that “the quest for the historical Jesus has yielded major uncertainty on the historical reliability of the Gospels and on how closely the Jesus portrayed in the Bible reflects the historical Jesus.” What is bias about that? That is the exact opposite of bias simply stating the facts as determined though scientific process. or another example: - The global warming and MMR vaccine articles are examples; I hardly need to dive into these pages, since it is quite enough to say that they endorse definite positions that scientific minorities reject. There is information on both of those pages about the minority position, but it is limited because the scientific community is pretty much in agreement on the science behind those topic. Do we need to make sure half the article on the earth is dedicated to flat earth theory to insure there is no extreme liberal globe shaped earth bias?

grandridge 6y ago
To deny Wikipedia and tech in general have a serious left bias is the definition of living in an echo chamber

RobLach 6y ago

For an article trying to point out bias it sorely lacks any strong evidence and even includes evidence to contrary. Delusional.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

This is a classic example of impugning the truth by advocating for it with fallacious arguments. Pretending that Donald Trump is not a big fat liar is just ridiculous. Even when he's telling the truth he's lying because he exaggerates everything. But pretending that his Wikipedia article is neutral is equally ridiculous. Here's a random example. Remember that immigrant family separation thing? What actually happened was, there was an existing policy that children were separated from their parents if their parents were in detention. Under Obama that didn't apply to many people because not many people were being detained. Then Trump started prosecuting immigration violations and the number of detentions, and therefore separations, went up. Here's Wikipedia: > Previous administrations had no such policy of generally separating migrant families with children. Here's the NPR article they cite for the proposition: > Previous administrations did not, as a general principle, separate all families crossing the U.S. border illegally. Previous administrations did not, as a general principle, prosecute all families crossing the U.S. border illegally. The families thereby weren't separated as a general principle because the parents weren't being detained as a general principle, not because there was no separation policy when the parents were being detained. This sort of thing is endemic. Paper over the nuance to make the other team look bad. And it's as much NPR here as it is Wikipedia, but balance would have been to find the other half of the story and put it in the article.

sukilot 6y ago
It's absurd to say Wikipedia is unbiased, because bias is endorsed by Wikipedia's officially stated policy! The only requirement is that the bias is copied from an off-site source. Wikipedia endorses any well-established" news site, with no requirements that those sites cite their sources. Wikipedia rules require peer review for academic research that is cited, but not for private commercial news operations nor NPR. And despite how weak Wikipedia's rules are, enforcement of those rules is a farce. Anything remotely questionable is controlled by who ever manages to win control of the page, leading to articles that are mer copies of press releases and corporate websites. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources

duskwuff 6y ago

Wow, this is an incredibly bad take. Sanger claims that, in altering his early, rambling draft [1] of Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy [2], the project "no longer has an effective neutrality policy" and has endorsed an "utterly bankrupt" policy of "false balance". However, the principle of undue weight, which is what Sanger is referring to as "false balance", was already present in the exact version of the policy which Sanger edited: > Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a very popular view. That may be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. And this is precisely the policy which he proceeds to argue against! According to Sanger, the article on Barack Obama should focus more on the various short-lived media scandals and conspiracy theories surrounding his presidency, and articles on vaccines and global warming should focus more on their detractors. Of course, this is nonsense. The only thing that really changed in Wikipedia's policy was the abandonment of the clearly flawed principle that neutrality could be established by "presenting all points of view" on a topic. To understand how that policy is flawed, one need merely consider what would mean for topics with a single, simple consensus view and many fringe theories surrounding them, like Egyptian pyramids. To present every point of view about the pyramids (that they were built by or for aliens, or that their shape or arrangement has mystical powers... etc) alongside well-established scientific consensus (that they were built by Egyptians as royal tombs) would lend inappropriate weight to those points of view. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view&oldid=270459 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_vie...