7 ms·

I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to participate in

I think you're missing the point and purposefully misinterpreting this statement. Its not about tracking these people, its about allowing them to participate in today's world - from healthcare to mail.

PuffinBlue 6y ago
There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder. My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity embrace.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  I think this specifically relates to a slightly different problem, which is domain experts viewing their domain as being much more important than it actually is. There’s no reason at all to presume that a cartographer would have anything insightful to say about anything aside from cartography. Society has vested interests in many different areas, but cartographers can only be relied upon to have an interest in furthering the goals of cartography.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    I don't know, part of me agrees that specialization can lead to shortsightedness, but part of me also feels like this siloing of knowledge and siloing of influence is a way to divide and conquer, ensuring that only a select few have any say in society's direction.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      I’d say the siloing is necessary, but your concerns about its consequences result from poor leadership. It’s a problem that I’m sure most of us have seen play out at work. Companies tend to be divided into specialized departments, but if any of those departments gain too much influence over the rest of the company, things can go badly. Overly influential sales or security departments are a common thing people like to complain about. But if you end up with a company led by its sales team, it’s not really the sales teams fault, they’re just doing their job and advocating for the interests of the sales team. That failure would be with executive leadership, who’s supposed to listen to the advice/concerns of many different groups, each with their own specialized area of interest, and balance all their needs out according to some sort of over arching strategy. The same thing happens in public policy. For example, police are always going to advocate giving more power to police, because it helps them do their jobs and achieve the goals of their organization. That by itself is not a problem, because the role of government is to listen to those concerns and then to balance them out with all of society’s other interests. If that doesn’t happen to your satisfaction, it’s a failure of government, not of the police. It’s also one of the reasons why leadership during a crisis or after a tragedy is so prone to producing bad outcomes. Because those circumstances put one area of interest in the spotlight and make it very easy to forget about everything else. That’s how we ended up with the patriot act.
- Angostura 6y ago
  Absolutely. Let them live and die without sanitation, water and electricity.
- heisbsissi 6y ago
  Another example of a virtue signaling disguised as criticism of virtue signaling.
  - sojournerc 6y ago
    It's a criticism of the colonialist attitude that we must save the "savage" from themselves. It's possible to honor other humans by leaving them alone.
    - heisbsissi 6y ago
      I wished you honored me by not replying. Yes, the comment you wrote that is so broad as to be completely empty of any meaning is true. It's funny how you mention colonialism but all you people saying leave the primitives alone, isn't poverty and a shit life so romantic, not a single one of you mentioned what they want.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      If one hasn't worked in these places, one lacks the perspective to provide an informed criticism. If it helps one recognize a shortcoming in their world-model, I will share that being known to exist grants superior desired proximate results than being left alone. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, merely broadcasting information that I am privy to which I suspect most here may not be.
      - sojournerc 6y ago
        What type of work are you doing? In my youth I was a very zealous Christian, and went on mission trips to Peru, South Africa, Honduras, and Mexico. When I reflect back on those times I feel ashamed of my assumptions about the people we were trying to "save". I am now hyper-sensitive to the idea that some ways of living are qualitatively "better" than others. Certainly in South Africa, around Johannesburg the poverty I witnessed in their "townships" was truly painful, but that itself was caused by colonialism, and rough history of apartheid. The dead sibling comment to yours does make a point, we shouldn't assume these cultures (OP cultures - not mapped, not tracked) don't want to adopt some of modernity's benefits, but we also shouldn't assume that they do.
- throwaway5752 6y ago
  That's an unkind response to a valid counterpoint. None of us have any idea of these people are voluntarily off the grid or not, or if they were presented with the option of be tracked if they would. Maybe they wouldn't care to be tracked by a credit bureau, but would like a rescue mission to be mounted if there were a natural disaster that impacted them.
new2628 6y ago
I think it was spot on. Bureaucracies start with a good intention, then become self-serving, and then become viewed as the goal itself. The problem is not that these people are not mapped, the problem is that you cannot participate in healthcare without being mapped.
not-void 6y ago
yes. because we need them all in database to provide those services. plus, how would we be able to do any ethnic cleansing without list of undesirables.
EGreg 6y ago
To participate in today’s world you need to be tracked and all your stuff is under control. I think there are stories of natives being taken, visiting London and saying cool story bro no thanks. And going back. Actually, many Amish come back too. And as far as data... yes ir is now CRACK to organizations.... the word USER has a drug meaning too, and it’s probably very appropriate. The GDPR and Cali rules are just the beginning of detox... E2E all the things is coming. http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169
reaperducer 6y ago
My rights, citizenship, and entitlements are not determined by a number assigned to me. They were assigned by law at the time of my birth.
- cmehdy 6y ago
  Where I am a citizen (France) those documents have had a complicated history of being mandatory (for foreigners first, to control them), then since 1955 non-compulsory. Yet, Police forces can decide to control your identity in public and if you have no means to prove it to them they are allowed to detain you until "verified" (whatever that means)[0]. Of course, not having an ID card or similar document is also preventing you from having access to unemployment services, voting/being voted in, pass exams, being registered at a bank, traveling, etc.[1] Effectively, some citizenship rights, some entitlements, and to some extent some rights can be set aside due to not having a document that isn't compulsory. Yep.. [0] in French: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036 [1] in French: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601

PuffinBlue 6y ago

There it is: the siren call of the proselytising do gooder. My advancements will succour thee and into the warm boosm of modernity embrace.

AmericanChopper 6y ago
I think this specifically relates to a slightly different problem, which is domain experts viewing their domain as being much more important than it actually is. There’s no reason at all to presume that a cartographer would have anything insightful to say about anything aside from cartography. Society has vested interests in many different areas, but cartographers can only be relied upon to have an interest in furthering the goals of cartography.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  I don't know, part of me agrees that specialization can lead to shortsightedness, but part of me also feels like this siloing of knowledge and siloing of influence is a way to divide and conquer, ensuring that only a select few have any say in society's direction.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    I’d say the siloing is necessary, but your concerns about its consequences result from poor leadership. It’s a problem that I’m sure most of us have seen play out at work. Companies tend to be divided into specialized departments, but if any of those departments gain too much influence over the rest of the company, things can go badly. Overly influential sales or security departments are a common thing people like to complain about. But if you end up with a company led by its sales team, it’s not really the sales teams fault, they’re just doing their job and advocating for the interests of the sales team. That failure would be with executive leadership, who’s supposed to listen to the advice/concerns of many different groups, each with their own specialized area of interest, and balance all their needs out according to some sort of over arching strategy. The same thing happens in public policy. For example, police are always going to advocate giving more power to police, because it helps them do their jobs and achieve the goals of their organization. That by itself is not a problem, because the role of government is to listen to those concerns and then to balance them out with all of society’s other interests. If that doesn’t happen to your satisfaction, it’s a failure of government, not of the police. It’s also one of the reasons why leadership during a crisis or after a tragedy is so prone to producing bad outcomes. Because those circumstances put one area of interest in the spotlight and make it very easy to forget about everything else. That’s how we ended up with the patriot act.
Angostura 6y ago
Absolutely. Let them live and die without sanitation, water and electricity.
heisbsissi 6y ago
Another example of a virtue signaling disguised as criticism of virtue signaling.
- sojournerc 6y ago
  It's a criticism of the colonialist attitude that we must save the "savage" from themselves. It's possible to honor other humans by leaving them alone.
  - heisbsissi 6y ago
    I wished you honored me by not replying. Yes, the comment you wrote that is so broad as to be completely empty of any meaning is true. It's funny how you mention colonialism but all you people saying leave the primitives alone, isn't poverty and a shit life so romantic, not a single one of you mentioned what they want.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    If one hasn't worked in these places, one lacks the perspective to provide an informed criticism. If it helps one recognize a shortcoming in their world-model, I will share that being known to exist grants superior desired proximate results than being left alone. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, merely broadcasting information that I am privy to which I suspect most here may not be.
    - sojournerc 6y ago
      What type of work are you doing? In my youth I was a very zealous Christian, and went on mission trips to Peru, South Africa, Honduras, and Mexico. When I reflect back on those times I feel ashamed of my assumptions about the people we were trying to "save". I am now hyper-sensitive to the idea that some ways of living are qualitatively "better" than others. Certainly in South Africa, around Johannesburg the poverty I witnessed in their "townships" was truly painful, but that itself was caused by colonialism, and rough history of apartheid. The dead sibling comment to yours does make a point, we shouldn't assume these cultures (OP cultures - not mapped, not tracked) don't want to adopt some of modernity's benefits, but we also shouldn't assume that they do.
throwaway5752 6y ago
That's an unkind response to a valid counterpoint. None of us have any idea of these people are voluntarily off the grid or not, or if they were presented with the option of be tracked if they would. Maybe they wouldn't care to be tracked by a credit bureau, but would like a rescue mission to be mounted if there were a natural disaster that impacted them.

new2628 6y ago

I think it was spot on. Bureaucracies start with a good intention, then become self-serving, and then become viewed as the goal itself. The problem is not that these people are not mapped, the problem is that you cannot participate in healthcare without being mapped.

not-void 6y ago

yes. because we need them all in database to provide those services. plus, how would we be able to do any ethnic cleansing without list of undesirables.

EGreg 6y ago

To participate in today’s world you need to be tracked and all your stuff is under control. I think there are stories of natives being taken, visiting London and saying cool story bro no thanks. And going back. Actually, many Amish come back too. And as far as data... yes ir is now CRACK to organizations.... the word USER has a drug meaning too, and it’s probably very appropriate. The GDPR and Cali rules are just the beginning of detox... E2E all the things is coming. http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=169

reaperducer 6y ago

My rights, citizenship, and entitlements are not determined by a number assigned to me. They were assigned by law at the time of my birth.

cmehdy 6y ago
Where I am a citizen (France) those documents have had a complicated history of being mandatory (for foreigners first, to control them), then since 1955 non-compulsory. Yet, Police forces can decide to control your identity in public and if you have no means to prove it to them they are allowed to detain you until "verified" (whatever that means)[0]. Of course, not having an ID card or similar document is also preventing you from having access to unemployment services, voting/being voted in, pass exams, being registered at a bank, traveling, etc.[1] Effectively, some citizenship rights, some entitlements, and to some extent some rights can be set aside due to not having a document that isn't compulsory. Yep.. [0] in French: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1036 [1] in French: https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F11601